Neighbour told my DS that Father Christmas isn't real

[myneighboursarebellends]

My DS9 is in the same class in school as the DC next door, so me and the neighbour take turns to do the school run in the mornings. We have only lived next door to each other for just over a year and they have been ok aside from a run in over a fence, a tree, and their DC having a stint of being mean to mine in school 🥴 I have been so non-confrontational with all of this stuff because I have to live next door to them and don't want hostile relations with neighbours!

However, today's episode has really crossed a line for me and I need your help to understand if it is reasonable for me to be so fucked off (and to tell me what to do!)

DS has just said to me that on the way to school this morning, dad neighbour told him that Father Christmas isn't real. This is how he says the conversation went:
My DS: will you have elf on the shelf in your house?
Neighbour: no because elf on the shelf is fake. Just like Father Christmas, he doesn't exist.
My DS: yes he does!
Neighbour: no he doesn't. Christmas is about celebrating Jesus' birth, and Father Christmas is just made up.
My DS: well I don't believe in Jesus, so I think he is made up
Neighbour: what do you mean! Jesus created the earth, and all of us.
My DS: well I thought god was supposed to have created the earth

Ok, the whole god and Jesus part isn't so relevant, just relaying what DS said. But aside from telling him Father Christmas isn't real, elf on the shelf isn't real, and telling him he has to believe in Jesus, the man isn't even Catholic/Christian anyway. His wife is though (non practicing) and their family celebrate Christmas with presents and a tree and big fucking flashing Christmas lights on the outside of the house.

How DARE he tell someone else's child that Father Christmas doesn't exist! Who does that? I don't feel like I can let this go without saying something but I feel as if I need to balance my response being mindful that I have to continue to live next door to them! I don't really want to continue with the lift sharing but I am imagining the awkwardness of us bundling the DC into our own cars every morning whilst avoiding eye contact and then again at the other end!!

@myneighboursarebellends

Curious- how did you answer your son? How have you got round this so that he still believes?

He seems happy to continue to believe in FC and has disregarded the neighbour (and neighbours DC's who piped up too)

Why don't you be frank. Say that you are upset about neighbour telling your son Santa isn't real, and that as a result you will not be sharing lifts any more, or taking their child with you either.

I mean, really, if the man is this mean-spirited, you can't guarantee what he will or won't tell your son about, before he's ready to hear it.

I am simultaneously well impressed about how this issue kicks off on Mumsnet, but also quite invested in it at the same time. When my kids were 6 one of them asked me "Is Santa real" and after checking they were really OK to hear the truth even if they didn't like it, I told them yes. I think 6 is a developmentally appropriate age to learn that Santa isn't real - it's the age when they start to really think rationally and sort stuff (unicorns vs narwhals, princesses vs dragons) into "real" and "not real" categories. And I think that once they have reached that stage, the question "is Santa real" is a genuine request for information, they know what they are asking, and to say yes at that point is a lie in a way that it wouldn't be if you were talking about Santa to a 4 or 5 year old. It's not the biggest deal in the world, people lie about stuff, it's not badly meant - but I don't think it's a good thing, particularly if you want your kids to keep on relying on you as an honest source of information. This is about the age where they start quoting the teacher back to you as if everything they said is gospel, isn't it? I mean fair enough. My kids' teacher here in Germany just did a lesson on Christmas and Santa traditions around Europe, so the kids are now totally aware that their wee colleagues all have different Santas that come on different days and all this sort of stuff. There's no way they could still believe that their Santa is the One True Santa and that he goes to every child and it's all literally true. At most it's going to be that sort of half arsed religious style "well all of our Santas are real, in a way, because they are real in our hearts" sort of belief, not the sort of "there is an actual man putting a Hatchimal and a bucketload of lego in a sack for me somewhere up in Finland right now" one.

What a horrible neighbour. The conversation around regilion is brilliant though. Ouch!

Many believe until they're 10, and the neighbour shouldn't have taken that away. It's the parent's job to have that conversation. Twat.

My name is Wheretogonow and I believed in Father Christmas until I was 12.

I feel better for getting that off my chest. To reassure you Op I am a (fairly good) functioning grown up. No harm occurred. Thank goodness my mum wasn't friends with the judgey, cutting women on here.

Your neighbour is a dick. I'd make my house as commercialised as possible just to piss him off. Just think of all the outdoor Father Christmas lights you could put up

Yes, my DC1 was in year 6 before he asked the probing questions and DC2 in year 5. No one has the right to say that to a 9 year old. There is no way he would be taking my kids to school. Time to shut that down. And I am a Christian- but there can still be Santa/Father Christmas, Easter bunny, tooth fairy- why would anyone take that away? All our family asked us around 10 if DCs still believed - they would never have said something like that to them.

@theThreeofWeevils

dont forget the octopus Never. Flail a tentacle or a cephalopod bites the sand! Other panto staples exist.

I've already explained that he believes in neither Jesus nor god and merely understands that Christians believe that god created the earth and Jesus.

Er - no we don't!

Jesus IS God, and like God the Father, has always been, is, and shall always be. Jesus was with God and part of God from the beginning - he was not created but was incarnated in human form. Along with the Holy Spirit he is part of the Trinity.

And the physically incarnated Jesus is, as others have said, a documented historical figure.

However, I totally agree with you that your NDN had no right to tell your DS that there was no Santa Claus.

@thosetalesofunexpected

Hi Op I totally agree your next door neighbour totally overstepped the mark telling your son father Christmas is not real.

I had a very shit childhood growing up in children's homes in midlands.

Thankfully when I was adopted when I was 10, my childhood improved a lot thankfully,

My mother and father even though they were church going Christians also told me and kept up the magic and wonder of Christmas.

Why do the Grinch posters think it is ok, or a terrible lie to keep the pretense of the magic an wonder of Christmas time,??

When in the western world we live in a society that actively encourages/pressures Children to grow up far too quickly in toxic ways, such as pop music videos like almost soft porn videos and clothing items that are sexulised slogans written on them, school pencil cases with playboy slogan etc, and American style Beauty Parades of small girls judging them on the beauty.!!!

All The Posters who make out that its such a terrible lie to to keep up father Christmas is still alive etc.

Everybody is obviously entitled to their belief systems.

Thanks All the GrinchGrinch(Arrogant) posters for wanting to spoil Christmas time people like myselfs who had such Already shitty childhoods like mine by wanting to grow up even faster by deny the opportunity of magic of Christmas time like that.

You are all miserable sad Gits,
Get a life.😴😬.

I am still struggling to come to terms with my shitty side of my childhood and definately need to have therapy of some kind for this.

I defiantly do not need Therapy for believing in father Christmas and the magic of giving out and receiving christmas,!

I am eternally grateful for my mother and father who adopted me telling me about father Christmas.

I really like the idea of giving presents for children who are experiencing Crap childhoods

Thank you Op you sound lovely,
Merry Christmas to you and your family.xxx

That is a lovely post.

Oh, well that's what his understanding of Christianity is anyway. I don't profess to know a great deal about it!

I tend to view things from experience. I loved it when my kids were young and believed in Santa... About 4,5,6 it was lovely to see the big build up, looking through the Argos catalogue ( they've stopped doing them now 😲) choosing their presents that came with the exclamations of "Oooh I want that, I'm going to ask Santa for that" I casually glanced one year thinking how long will this list be🤣 and was a little bemused to see the chosen item was a bread bin. I later found out they thought it was a toy garage 😃 he was only 2 bless him... He still gets ribbed now 😃. It's lovely seeing that innocent little person so excited that some guy in a red suit will be giving them. Whilst your gift is cast aside as boring Mummy and Daddys 😂
I've also seen the nasty side where kids have been unkind and are tormenting the poor lad who still believes on his way home from School ( not my kids I hasten to add)
Kids should be allowed to be kids yes, but sadly in today's society they are expected to grow up quickly, become independent in primary schools having to take coats off hang them up independently and sort themselves out. Teachers do their best to discourage precious parents. Where we played, had milk read the odd two words on a page reading book. Now kids are doing tests, SATs etc at a very young age. I guess there's no place for fairy tales and magical moments in all that.
As sad as it is I think with the safeguarding issues now we again have to be so very careful. We're asking kids to believe in one breath and then telling them to say if they feel adults behave inappropriately.
It must be very confusing for kids, and I know I would want to be the one to tell my kids the truth, than some nasty little sod and following it up with ridicule.
That's my take on it anyway. I don't expect people to agree.

*He’s nine. He likely already knows, and if he genuinely doesn’t, then most of his classmates know and someone will have said something by now

That's beside the point, you dont do what this dad did.

I'd be having words.

My 11 year old dgs believed in Father Christmas until last year. Most of his primary school friends did too. This year parents have mostly found ways to translate the actual Santa into a feeling of loving and sharing. Nine isn’t too old to believe.

This is such a weird thread. OP of course he shouldn't have said that to your son. When I saw the title I thought you were going to say it was a child from next door that had said it. That would have been a different matter entirely. But for an adult to do this is either spiteful or just weird.

You can quite legitimately tell your son that Santa Claus is real!
He was St Nicholas, a bishop of Smyrna in the fourth century AD, who threw purses of gold in through poor people’s windows so their daughters would have a dowry and be able to marry.

You can explain that although St Nicholas died centuries ago, the lovely legends continue and are a fun part of Christmas.
However, they are only an unimportant side issue. The biggest present at Christmas is the gift of Jesus to the world, and that is what we are actually celebrating. The salvation of all mankind, and Christ’s victory over death, are so much more than a few bits of tinsel wrapped crap!

It was the neighbours day to do the lift to school today, so I had to say something as I had decided I'm taking DS every day from now on. I put DS in the car as neighbour was putting his own stuff in his car, then I forced myself to say something.

Me: X, did you tell DS yesterday that FC isn't real?
NDN: no (looked pretty shifty) what I said was, 'so, why do we celebrate Christmas' and your DS said 'because of FC' and I said 'no, that's not right. It's because of Jesus.' Because Christmas is about Jesus. DS said that he doesn't believe in Jesus.
Me: that's right, he doesn't believe in Jesus and neither do I.
NDN: well you should. And I told him that he should. Because if you celebrate Christmas you should believe in Jesus.
Me: yes, well, I don't and neither does DS. He said though that you told him elf on the shelf and FC isn't real.
NDN: er yes I did say I don't believe in elf on the shelf. We have one that [wife neighbour] does but I said I don't think it's real
Me: but did you say FC isn't real?
NDN: no, no (as he's walking away getting in his car

Don't believe him, he was well shifty about it. Told DS that neighbour said he didn't say that to him and he quite indignantly said 'yes he did!!' Not interested in having a debate with him either about whether we 'should' believe in Jesus or not either. And he's got a bloody elf on the shelf too.

Hi Just to Clarify I ment in previous comments how our society minimises child abuse in General,such as people knowing what Jimmy Saville and Cyril smith was like, etc and those quite recent threads of Posters talking of the secondary school experiences in 1970s 1980s ,1990s and Posters talk on threads of Paedo Teachers having flings,or running off with former pupils etc etc, and Posters talking onthese threads in the manner "those were the days when we had hi jinks jolly hokey sticks such fun times" etc.

Also ment to say that a lot of child hood abuse happens amongst families hiding in plain sight, such as unwanted touch a grope or being pressurised as a child to have to have to give or accept a kiss from Creepy Uncle or to a member of family child does not like, can't not stand sight of Just to to not hurt grown up members of their family feelings in Any way.!!

To keep up family Appearances !!

I am not in Any way Dismissing Any kind of child hood abuse in Any way...

Like I said I experienced very shitty childhood so know what its like.

The attitude of these threads always depresses me a bit. Whether or not we as adults feel that the DC should or should not believe it's a truly nasty thing to do to take that from a child. It says a huge amount about the adult who does it or even the one who merrily claims that they "should" know the truth at a certain age. It's just rubbish isn't it , silly ignorant adults making a random decision about should.

Life is bloody hard , especially at the moment. If a single moment of fantasy and magic makes a child happy why on earth would people be ok with that being removed. It says a lot about their self obsession.

OP it's not odd he believes at 9. Blimey , there is time enough for reality to hit our DC, no need to speed it up. I always love those that wax lyrical about lying to DC about Santa. Without realising they show themselves as ignorant for not understanding the minutiae of human interactions. The difference between myths and legends (that serve , and always have , an important part of societies development ).

Whatever you think , its disgusting to actively interfere in a childs beliefs without the parent. Its irrelevant if you do or do not believe a child should know ,you do not tell them.

I would say something personally , politely and but I would say it. My ds1 was had a bloody rough couple of years and still believes , if that helps him at the moment then I would be incandescent if someone tried to take that away from him for some self satisfied pointless selfish need to be smug.

Saw your update.

Glad you said something , see it's clear he knows he was being nasty or he would at least admit it.

Cyril Smith Liberal MP who was a MP in1970s who was Just as evil as Jimmy Saville was in the same way .
Cyril smith Liberal MP liked going around abusing Boys in private boarding schools and high society lauded him, he even had a knighthood and Top brass in Liberal party and high up in our society even protected his so called respectable reputation by putting barriers blocking any attempts at Justice through courts for his victims who were dismissed high up in our society as Fantasists !

Shocking isn't it !😬

I'm glad you confronted him. Hopefully he'll learn a lesson.

I’m glad you said something OP he really overstepped the Mark

Neighbour sounds awful and should not have got into a discussion with a child about religion or Santa. It isn’t his place to inflict his personal beliefs on anyone else, but it is abhorrent to try to do this with a child.

I do agree with a pp though, it seems as though your boy more than held his own. I think he’ll be ok.

Well done confronting him about it! Sounds like he bloody well did say it and knows that he shouldn’t have.
I agree - bellend.

I'm always amazed by how unwilling people are on MN to let children be children and let them grow up at their own speed and are determined that the child grow up quickly. My DS is 9, he is excited to see the toy catalogue to make his list, yes maybe he's starting to think a little about it but he hasn't said anything yet and I won't either as he's quite young for his age and there's plenty of time for him to grow up into what is quite frankly a pretty shitty world right now! If he wants to keep the magic going then good for him !!