The betrayal of a public sector pay freeze

[Ori3]

Yes, we're facing the biggest economic crisis since peacetime. Yes money has to be found. But as a first measure, why instantly freeze the pay of teachers, police, firefighters, council staff and civil servants; key-workers who have risked so much during the pandemic.

These are the people holed up in a room looking after 30+ kids per day, supporting vulnerable people in social care, helping businesses access the furlough scheme, supplying universal credit, dealing with household emergencies, and tackling an increase in demand for urgent care services.

And their reward for helping to keep the show going? The certainty of a pay freeze for the next however many years and a conciliatory pat-on-the-head as added bonus. It's a joke.

And the awful irony of it all is that these are the sectors that protect most vulnerable and disadvantaged in our society, alongside looking after the nation's kids. They're the ones gluing it all together. Shut the schools and you've got a crisis. Stop social care and you've got a crisis. Get rid of the police force = crisis. Oh and firefighters? Who needs them? Council workers? Well all they do is push pieces of paper around and refuse to answer calls?! Get rid of them too.

In the words of Fight Club's Chuck Palahniuk:

“Remember this. The people you're trying to step on, we're everyone you depend on. We're the people who do your laundry and cook your food and serve your dinner. We make your bed. We guard you while you're asleep. We drive the ambulances. We direct your call. We are cooks and taxi drivers and we know everything about you. We process your insurance claims and credit card charges. We control every part of your life.

We are the middle children of history, raised by television to believe that someday we'll be millionaires and movie stars and rock stars, but we won't. And we're just learning this fact. So don't fuck with us.”

@Treacletoots

So you've shock done your job as expected during the last year, not been made redundant, or asked to take a significant pay cut but instead in a global pandemic and shit storm that is Brexit you expect to be rewarded with a payrise?

Give your head a wobble. And be grateful you have a f* job

This basically....

Apparently being public sector means we don’t care about the devastating collapse of the economy.

Well at least one person in the public sector doesn't seem to be too badly hit by the collapse of the economy....
www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/nov/27/huge-wealth-of-sunaks-family-not-declared-in-ministerial-register
I'll bet that blind trust is worth far more than any of us earn. So he's uniquely qualified to know that public sector employees get paid too much, whilst he and his mates are raking it in from dodgy government contracts awarded without scrutiny. If we need to recoup some of the losses, perhaps we could start with the £millions awarded to Ministers mates?

Plenty people in the private sector in them same postion

For all of you saying nasty things about public sector workers..how prepared are you then if we privatise all these services eh?

Are you prepared to pay separately for bin collections, fire brigade, police protection, social care, libraries, education, medical care

Cos guess what it'd cost you heck of a lot more, only have to look to America to see cost of medical care alone. Most of you canf even afford private education either

Infact I say lets do stick two fingers up to you who think us public sector workers are lazy. Pay for it yourself and let's see how happy you are then

@buggerbogner
'Because my husband days so' is a particularly weak argument. I think most people that do your husband's job know there are good and better resourced GPs and less good, less well resourced GPs.

@cyclingmad

For all of you saying nasty things about public sector workers..how prepared are you then if we privatise all these services eh?

Are you prepared to pay separately for bin collections, fire brigade, police protection, social care, libraries, education, medical care

Cos guess what it'd cost you heck of a lot more, only have to look to America to see cost of medical care alone. Most of you canf even afford private education either

Infact I say lets do stick two fingers up to you who think us public sector workers are lazy. Pay for it yourself and let's see how happy you are then

The comments are not nasty to public service workers. They're just saying that when people in the private sector are getting redundancies, furloughs (not nice luxurious paid holidays like many imagine, but people on minimum wage being forced to manage on 80% of that) and pay freezes or even cuts, it's hard to summon the energy to call for public sector pay rises, especially with taxes forecast to rise.

I have no desire to privatise services and would like to see them better funded - but would prefer to see increased numbers of employees, especially in the current unemployment environment, than pay rises for GPs.

@cyclingmad

For all of you saying nasty things about public sector workers..how prepared are you then if we privatise all these services eh?

Are you prepared to pay separately for bin collections, fire brigade, police protection, social care, libraries, education, medical care

Cos guess what it'd cost you heck of a lot more, only have to look to America to see cost of medical care alone. Most of you canf even afford private education either

Infact I say lets do stick two fingers up to you who think us public sector workers are lazy. Pay for it yourself and let's see how happy you are then

Honestly, seeing the way the public sector have performed throughout the pandemic doesn’t strengthen the case against privatisation,

Private schools out performed state schools

The NHS have been unable to cope

Local council services have been a shambles

If there was some form of competition I can’t think it could possibly be any worse

@hamstersarse
Completely agree.
Our local council seized the Covid excuse to reduce it remove services ‘to protect the safety of their employees’ and stuff the people who rely on services they pay for -no reduction in council tax, needless to say.
If these services are deemed unnecessary this year then don’t provide them at all.
I don’t agree with the MPs pay rise, but jjst out of interest for those who conflate MPs with ‘Tory scum’ -have all the Labour MPs refused to take the increase. Better to refuse it than give to charity or they will be taxed on the higher amount they then give away, and surely they round prefer the state to decide how to spend the money rather than the individual? What has Keir said?

I listen to various US news podcasts and the NHS is a bit of a laughing stock when seen from afar.

We may criticise the US system but what they see is that our standards are low because it’s a universal system...no choice, no performance metrics and ‘you just get the doctor you are given’ which often isn’t the right solution. They would argue that their system allows you to shop around for the best doctor, much like you do with anything else.

My family live in a European country where the Health Service is precisely that -not a religion as it is here, and their outcomes and service is way better than here.

I work in an FE college. Had a pay freeze for about 8 years. Also lost pay in real terms due to a detrimental contract change. Finally got a pay rise last year which was £20 a month. Whoop whoop!

So I wasn't expecting a pay rise anyway, this isn't news to me. Colleagues in another team at college have just had a contract change forcing a salary drop plus less hours after having to reapply for their job.

@hamstersarse

They would argue that their system allows you to shop around for the best doctor, much like you do with anything else.

Would they? That's funny when I lived in the US most of the people I came across were extremely envious of universal healthcare, particularly my friend whose mother was made bankrupt after her father got cancer and died, but hey at least they got to choose the doctor they couldn't afford? Then again, I haven't done the opinion poll of the States you've clearly done.

Also tbh I feel lucky to have a secure-ish job at the moment. I have much less to spend money on because of covid, so I'm actually ok without a pay rise.
I do worry about employment rights though. Short-term and pay cuts is becoming the norm in FE.

[quote notheragain41]@hamstersarse

They would argue that their system allows you to shop around for the best doctor, much like you do with anything else.

Would they? That's funny when I lived in the US most of the people I came across were extremely envious of universal healthcare, particularly my friend whose mother was made bankrupt after her father got cancer and died, but hey at least they got to choose the doctor they couldn't afford? Then again, I haven't done the opinion poll of the States you've clearly done.[/quote]
There is no perfect health system. And we can all roll out stories of bad events within any health system. But the US have adjusted for the situation you describe with Obamacare, the question is whether we are prepared to adjust for our particular problem.

The main USP of our system is the universal access, but I think that’s also it’s Achilles heel. It has meant over time, service has suffered. It clear to see for anyone looking there are huge failings in the NHS.

The answer most certainly IMO is not just more funding, and it’s more about how we increase standards with some level of competitiveness, anc maybe therefore we also adjust parts of the NHS with more privatisation (I.e. competition)

@hamstersarse you really need to stop talking about things you don't understand, listening to podcasts does not make you a healthcare expert, Obamacare caught some of the people at the bottom from slipping through the net but has far from resolved the issue, the situation I mentioned was post Obamacare.

The NHS is far from perfect, but to think the US system is in anyway comparable as an improvement is laughable, let me know if you want me to point you in the direction of podcasts that give you the other side of the US story, you're clearly listening to something with an agenda.

Public sector are facing enormous job losses, pay freezes and pay/hours cuts so I’m afraid I’m in the camp of not being desperately worried about civil servants

There are well paid and poorly paid jobs in both public and private sector.
I think the pay scale might be more fixed and regimented in the public sector, and that could be limiting but there are usually better pensions and holidays.
There seems to be an assumption among some people that while public sector wages have been frozen, anyone in the private sector enjoys at least an inflation level pay rise every year.
I work in the private sector doing a skilled job. It took me 5 years to train, and after 20 years I get paid the same as an NQT. I had a pay rise last year, but before that it was 9 years previously.
Most of my friends advocating the first lockdown were public sector workers who (in the main) could wfh. And one said how great it would be as "we" would be saving so much money by not going out. (Ignoring that some of us weren't earning the same money)

I spent 10 years working for a council and although I’m now in the private sector I have many friends who work in my old place who have been working at home, working their set hours leisurely at home. Yes there maybe some who are going above and beyond but a hell of a lot who aren’t.

Being in the private sector doesn’t guarantee a pay rise unless you are on minimum wage and that rises. It certainly doesn’t guarantee you sick pay or anything better than than the basic employer contribution to your pension. My public sector pension came with a death in service benefit so essentially free life insurance and the say pay was generous enough that I didn’t take a policy for that either. I also got a lot more holiday and flexi time.

Whilst no job is safe, a whole council is much less likely to make all of its employees redundant than say top shop making all its employees redundant.

Many public sector authorities will do everything possible to avoid redundancy including giving a lot of notice that it’s going to happen and not recruiting staff when shortages so they can move people around.

Another major difference is the attitudes between the two sectors to working hours. My public sector authority has 37 hour weeks with two days per four weeks flexi and one day homeworking pre covid. How many private sector jobs have flexi and a culture where you only do your hours and enough over to get the flexi? It’s a whole different attitude 40 hour week is standard and unpaid overtime is the norm. You work to get the job done and not until you have done your hours.

The public sector needs a massive shake up. When I started there people used to not only take their full breaks they would also make a cup of tea an hour in a group, waiting for the kettle to boil, tea to brew, drinks to cool, drinking the tea or coffeee, washing the mug up in turn and then returning to desks, in addition to cigarette breaks and if the work wasn’t getting done we got a new member of staff to help. Thankfully it did improve towards the end, but still it is a different world to any private sector job.

I honestly believe the public sector needs senior management from private sector firms to go in an£ change how things are done, review how employees work and the processes they do.

My council spent a fortune putting in a takeaway shop doing hot food and used polystyrene contains that are so environmentally unfriendly whilst laminated posters on cutting down on plastic went up.

Employees were queuing for their breakfasts and lunch during work time and using it as another break, it cost a lot to set up, they weren’t allowed to charge much for whatever reason and a year later it was scrapped as a local deli complained. It was a farce.

During the pandemic my friends still there having been telling me what’s been happening and so if a library is closed the library staff stay at home on full pay, there should be some way of find8ng them something else to do? But it’s well known that things are on the go slow and no one is doing much apart from a few front line staff.

Here we go how dare peolle take their designated breaks and the full allotted time (no talking about extra ones)

God forbid you take your one hour lunch break

Ffs stop trying to make things worse, again this race to the bottom. We should be trying to improve things and make them better

@cyclingmad

I think you come into the category of people who can’t listen and are stuck in their own ideological pit.

Everything anyone writes on this thread, you come back with an over exaggerated sound bite of a comment, deliberately missing the point

The obvious point being made about breaks was about working cultures being different. You can chose to ignore the point like you do, but you’ll end up eventually missing the whole debate while you fester in bitterness

Its all swings and roundabouts really - yes public sector wages come from taxation. But we pay taxes too. What do we do with our wages? We spend them in private sector companies, therefore contributing to their wages (obvs private sector do this too). One couldn't exist without the other. Businesses have relied on the public sector to administer the furlough scheme and rates relief blah blah.

In response to a pp, not all private companies have adapted well in the pandemic. Eg I had to cancel the DCs school uniforms as they were not going to arrive on time, 2 months after ordering. Got a grumpy 'well there's a pandemic on you know' so had to go elsewhere and received them immediately. I ordered a very expensive purchase recently and was told there is an 8 week delay 'due to covid'. Loads of other examples! My service is still operating fully (NHS) albeit with no visitors.

So posters need to stop generalising.

Why shouldn't public sectors grumble at no pay rise when they will be paying extra taxation (so a pay cut) to support the private sector who have received a ton of money during the pandemic? I fully support the furlough scheme and am happy to pay for it, but that doesn't mean I can't have a grumble about the whole situation.

Just like my DH will (private sector, he wasn't furloughed but many in his company were to try and avoid redundancies). We are allowed a grumble and to feel sorry for ourselves.

But we need to move on from our grumble and just get on with things.

@PrivateD00r

That school uniform company will likely go out of business if that is their response. That’s the difference. They certainly won’t be getting a pay rise

God forbid you take your one hour lunch break

How did you get from the PP reporting that her colleagues wasted working time making tea en masse, drinking tea en masse, smoking fags, queueing up for breakfast and queueing up for lunch to “the PP doesn’t want anybody to have a lunch break?”

Too many people are losing their jobs in the private sector when nobody is losing their job in the public sector. So if it's between payrise or agreeing that some may be up for redundancy I know what I'd choose and I think that's where the government are going with this.
I know a lot of public sector workers who have less work to do now and are at home which is through no fault of their own. But should they get a payrise? No

@shropshire11

I think most people value front-line workers, but public sector pay has to bear some relation to private sector pay (i.e. the people whose taxes actually cover the costs).

In the private sector, millions have lost their jobs or been furloughed, and very very few will be getting pay rises. They also receive substantially fewer holidays, inferior pensions, etc.

In this context, there has to be some fairness, or else you have a two-tier economy where people working for the government enjoy safe well-paid jobs and everyone else works hard for less money to pay for them. That isn't sustainable.

Believe it or not, public sector workers pay tax too, you know.