To not be able to forgive myself for the way I treated my babies?

[Notmyusual80]

They're 11 and 7 now but when I think back to how I was when they were babies, I absolutely despise myself. Having young babies turned me into someone I didn't recognise- so angry, a control freak, completely and utterly obsessed with sleep.

To be clear, I never did and never would hurt them. But my god I used to shout a lot. And lose my temper. When they were tiny. My first was an absolute angel of a baby, so easy. But I didn't know that at the time as I had nothing to compare her to. I had a really hard few months getting her into a sleep routine and I'd lose my rag if she wouldn't go to sleep/ had unexpected night wakings. I was so obsessed with the knock on effect it would have if sleep didn't go just right. The poor little thing was and still is such a good girl.

I thought I'd be better with my 2nd but he was more hard work than my DD and I think that made things worse because I thought I'd know it all the 2nd time around and it would be easy. I frequently lost my temper with him. What an awful thing to admit. And I'd snap at my sweet DD who was a toddler as I was wound up. One time, the baby had been unwell with tonsillitis but was almost fully over it. He kept waking one night but rather than thinking he might still be feeling poorly and therefore being sympathetic, I got cross with him and was swearing and huffing. It was almost like I felt he was doing it on purpose?!!! My mum reminded me of it the other day and said she wanted to shake me at the time. Another time, I'd had a few really bad nights and the baby woke in the night and when i went to settle him, i realised he'd pooed and I said something like "great, you've pooed,course you have you dirty little xxxxxxx". My DH had a real go at me and rightly so - I apologised straight away. I feel so awful and ashamed admitting to all this.

I clearly remember when my second was a baby feeling really angry a lot of the time, where my whole body would be clenched and I'd be almost shaking. What the hell was wrong with me? I must say, I wasn't like this all the time - just when sleep was going badly and I was feeling anxious about it. I completely love and adore my children and I did and do show them a lot of love.

The thing is, there was so much about the baby years I absolutely loved - playing with them, taking them to baby groups, watching them interact with other babies and toys, just feeling like I had these little sidekicks with me. I'd give anything to go back and be the mum I should have been. It completely haunts me and I pray they don't remember any of it.

I spoke to a friend the other day who has just had her second (3 weeks ago) and she just sounded so thrilled and kept saying she can't believe how happy she feels. She was expecting it to be awful because her 1st was really hard work but this baby is really easy and she just feels so happy. I voucher cried remembering what a snappy, stressed, nasty cow I was at that stage with my two.

I'm scared to post this as I expect a lot of people will think I sound like an absolute monster. But i just need to know if anyone has had a similar experience at all and if so, how they've learned to live with it?

It's not going to be a few instances of shouting your children remember- it's going to be your relationship as a whole.

This.

Be kind to yourself now, and build your relationship and bond with your children now, as you are moving forward. I was awful too with my first two, and looking back, I think I was depressed as my Mum had died suddenly and my brother was seriously ill (not that that is any excuse for losing my rag at my babies) - but shit happens.

And you have to do your best moving forward. I don't think I was a monster, but yes, I wish now I had been a better Mum to my babies.

hopefully you can change the perspective you have on yourself. Virtual hugs to you - you're not alone.

Sorry I was trying to reply to whatnameisgood !

Op you are not a monster. I get really angry when I haven't had enough sleep and to this day it contributes towards my depression. The thought of having another baby who may not sleep well terrifies me.
Its not your fault
I think it was definitely PND. I was diagnosed with it. I reacted almost the same as you but my anger was towards my dh. Dont beat yourself up about it.

whatnameisgood I completely agree. It’s almost facilitated here on Mumsnet too when everyone is told to stay away for weeks and PILs are kept at arms length. It is such a burden to be the only person responsible for a tiny being.

pictish I don’t disagree with you about sleep in general and I know several sleep obsessed parents and was one myself with our third. We had two easy sleepers who miraculously just slept. Our third was not that way inclined. When you know you will be the soul person up all night and will get no respite during the day as she won’t sleep you become obsessed. Add to that getting bashed for considering sleep training. It can all feel more than a little perpetual. My third baby absolutely didn’t ‘sleep when she was tired’ she screamed and screamed and screamed when she was tired. Yes I became controlling because I needed to be.

OP please be kind to yourself. There is a reason why so many people find the newborn age hard so you really aren’t alone. Parenting can be a tough, solitary gig. Xxx

@pictish

I agree with Hazel there. I’ve known a few women who got all chewed up over sleep/nap times to the point of being fraught, controlling and completely disproportionate about it. I always wondered why they think it matters so much. They’re convinced there will be carnage if baby sleeps or wakes at the ‘wrong’ time...but babies are, to my mind, quite unpredictable and you’ve got allow for a certain amount of disruption to your all important schedule if you’re going to have one.

I was a go with the flow, as and when mum when mine were babies. All three fell into a natural routine of sleeping through most of the night pretty quickly. I never worried if they were an hour ‘late’ to settle for a nap or if they dropped off ‘early’. I adapted. I couldn’t understand why other mums got themselves so torn up over routines.
I realise it takes all sorts and we are all different in our approach...I never said a word of course...but no, I didn’t worry about sleep or feeding like others seemed to. They sleep when they’re tired and eat when they’re hungry. It’s how babies are.

😂 yes I’m sure it was your relaxed approach that meant your babies slept through. Have you ever considered that some mums become obsessive because they have bad sleepers?! As someone who had children who didn’t sleep through until they were 3 despite how ‘relaxed’ I was, or whatever I did I find your post smug and sanctimonious. But I’m sure you’ll carry on congratulating yourself on how you created good sleepers.

You're not a monster, I've felt the way you have and honestly if the sleep deprivation went on much longer I probably would have shouted too.

Give yourself a break

My mother shouted at us alot if she was in a mood, if we inconvenienced her, if we spoke in a room of adults... this was 30 years ago. I never felt much love from my mum and she had this look she did to warn you to stop fidgeting etc, I cried at the slightest thing (and still do!) only to be told "stop crying or I'll give you something to cry about". Not unsurprisingly, we were the best behaved kids who would always do what they were told and actually for the longest time I also thought this was "good parenting" because mum was forever getting compliments about how well behaved and good mannered we were. As an adult, I now appreciate the emotional issues this caused us. Mum will occasionally reflect and wonder if she was too harsh and has mellowed a lot (but still uses the warning look) but I don't think she'll ever be able to fully see the damage her style of parenting had. There were mental health and alcohol issues later on when we were teens too which had their own impact on us but I know a lot of the damage was done prior to that. I will do my level best never to replicate what I grew up with but back then it was applauded but our other family/friends which is ridiculous to think about now. A previous PP said shouting at babies/toddlers has no effect on their development because they won't remember they're like sponges at that age!!! I think it really depends on how sustained the behaviour is because too much and it almost certainly will be damaging but it may take years to fully realise.

All that to one side, OP you sound like a really good mum. You wouldn't be experiencing this regret now if you weren't. You recognise it wasn't the best behaviour, thats the first step. The next is to learn from it and forgive yourself. Children are resilient and as I read someone say on here yesterday, love is like glitter, it goes everywhere, it sounds like you've shown your kids the love they needed over the years. Be kind to yourself

OP, I was the same with DD1, I would get the rage when she wouldn’t go to sleep/wake up frequently and swear at her. My mum and DH also told me off for it. I had PND from a traumatic delivery, but I still wish I could go back and do things differently.

Thankfully with DD2 I didn’t have PND, and I was much more patient and loving with her. But that’s made me feel guilty that DD1 missed out... she’s 10 now and we have a good relationship, so I just try and do my best now to make up for it.

Yeah slow clap for pictish for her perfect relaxed mothering

The fact that you never understood other mothers and their different situations/struggles isn’t something to be proud of.

@pennypinchh

Maybe you just weren't meant to be a mum? Not every woman is suited to motherhood. Poor babies being yelled at in their formative years.

@pennypinchh

What a nasty thing to say, have you had a bad day?

Oh hey look...I didn’t intend to be sanctimonious. Sorry if I was. I knew a few stress heads back when mine were young that’s all. If it wasn’t sleep it was food...what, how much, when, how often...obsessing isn’t good for anyone.
I’m not claiming an award here. My approach was pretty lazy actually.

@Notmyusual80

I can remember yelling at both mine when they wouldn't sleep. I'm not proud of it at all but they are both happy and healthy and we have a great relationship. Forgive yourself and focus on doing the best you can now. That's all that matters.

We don't talk about anger enough in relation to post natal depression but it's a huge problem. Pennypinchs response is why it is so taboo to talk about, straight in with the "it's not ok, you damaged them, you're a monster" rhetoric. If being shouted at as a baby damages your brain then I think we know what happened to her. Quite frankly love you're kicking someone whilst they're down, pack it the fuck in.

OP, please ignore disparaging comments. The fact is that you know your behaviour wasn't right in hindsight, that shows that you're not an abusive person. However you were out of control with regards to your behaviour post birth and not acting like yourself. Whatever damage may or may not have been done post birth (and I imagine it will be minimal as you said that there was a lot you enjoyed the young years- sounds you interacted and gave a lot of love, it was just sleep that was your pinch point?)

I think your mum and your partner should have encouraged you to seek help, they're not entirely blameless in this are they? They could see you were struggling.

I was really similar. My kids are 2 and 4 and seem ok, 4 is quiet, creative and clever and 2 is a crazy funny ball of energy... I work every day on making sure that I'm boosting their self esteem and doing activities and having fun, basically mmaking up for the dickhead I was then.

I only got better after 6 months of monthly support from a psychiatrist, and weekly visits from a therapist, a support worker and a nursery nurse (NHS provision where I live is bloody amazing!) I also had a fuck load of medication and lots of support from my family. You've sorted yourself by yourself, that's impressive.

I suspect we are going to see a lot more of this and the effects and repercussions coming to light post-pandemic.

I was a bit of a grumpy nightmare when my older two were tiny, much as you describe. My mum died just before I had my eldest and I was fairly young, and I just struggled to cope on hardly any sleep. I have an absolutely great relationship with them now. They have no doubts that I love them.

With my youngest I was much, much calmer. There's no difference in our relationship, just as good but no better.

Forgive yourself. Move on. You can't change the past but you can embrace the future.

You really struggled - it sounds like a form of PTSD or PND. But you still had a lovely time and as parents we only have to get most of it right not all of it. That’s enough for children to thrive. You did the best you could at the time. You love your children and need a bit more self love.

Anyone on this thread who is commenting about their experience of being shouted at as a child hasn’t read the OP properly and is just automatically projecting. She’s specifically talking about when her children were babies. She says she snapped at her daughter when her son was a baby, but doesn’t say she shouted or swore at her. I’d be surprised if any parent can hand on heart say they were never the slightest bit short with their toddler when their second was a newborn (although I see the perfect parents are out in force on this thread, so maybe I’m wrong).

Anyway, OP, you almost certainly had post-natal depression. I can relate. I had terrible PND and was badly injured giving birth. When my son was about 2 weeks old, I remember trying to change him in the middle of the night for the 50th time while he was screaming the house down. My vagina was still incredibly painful and I was struggling to walk or stand up, it felt like my insides were going to fall out, all I wanted was to lie down and rest. And my nipples were shredded to pieces. And I remember yelling at him ‘SHUT UP! JUST SHUT UP!’

I’m still deeply ashamed of that moment, and perhaps it has scarred him for life and stunted his development, but I’m pretty confident it hasn’t affected him or our relationship.

Just try to forgive yourself.

@pictish the thing is when you say things like that people are always going to get defensive because the insinuation is they were doing it wrong and if they'd just relaxed the baby would.

Doesnt work like that. When you have a baby who wakes every hour for weeks or months on end trying to stop it consumes you.

You've got your cause and effect the wrong way round and it is the most infuriating thing to hear when people bang on about 'i was relaxed so was my baby'. It's on a par with 'I did hypnobirthing so had a straightforward delivery'.

@Notmyusual80 seriously cut yourself some slack. The idea of shouting at a tiny baby is horrible. But many god.mostmof us have been there or if not very close. I got so angry one night that I stormed out the room kicked the first thing I saw - it was DS's bouncer, and not only did I break the bouncer but I also broke my toe.

They were desperate, desperate times. I now have a 6 week old and I have vowed to be better this time. I dont want my children to be afraid of me. I'm honestly sure yours weren't. Be kind to yourself.

We all make mistakes learning to be parents. I've found certain stages really tough. Terrible twos and I couldn't get on with breastfeeding at all and didn't persist both times. Forgive yourself and let it go and do something special with your little ones today. They're a great age to make memories.
My own parents definitely weren't perfect but I still had a great childhood and love them so much.
Have these feelings come up since the lockdowns? I had too much time to think during lockdown 1 and I felt really terrible about mistakes I made when I was in uni.

Look, when my mum snapped, she: pushed me in to the middle of a lake in a rowing boat and left me there; handcuffed me to a tree half a mile away; beat me with a saw. The last one only the once, the others a few times. I'm sure there were other things, but these are the ones she talks about.

You: shouted some things your babies couldn't understand.

Her parenting: lead to trauma and mental health problems for many years. I still have obvious attachment issues.

Your parenting: makes you feel guilt for something that will have had no effect.

I am still on good terms with my mum. It was very far from ideal, but I understand the problems that led her there. She should never have been in sole care of a young child. Your children will never know that this happened; frankly, I think YOUR mother is being a bit of a dick to bring it up after all this time.

I’m so sorry you feel this way and I just wanted to tell you that after my second was born I remember getting so frustrated with my then two year old girl that I still irrationally worry that it’s affected our relationship. And it is irrational because they can’t remember a lot of it. Plus you feel terrible about it so it’s not as if you’ve continued. My kids whining still makes me irrationally angry inside, it must be a weird evolutionary thing because I know I’m not the only one.

I’m sorry certain people on here had a horrible upbringing but I think they might be projecting. It’s the same when someone posts about feeling bad for shouting at their husband and then some people who have had a really rough time with their partners come on and shout ‘abuser!’ It seems like an overreaction.

You sound pretty normal. Those early years are gruelling. Not enough sleep, worry and often your own physical pain. .

I'd also like to know if your DH worked as a team and your mother helped instead of criticising you.

I agree that your mother’s response now shows her huge limitations then. If my daughter struggled like that I would have worried and helped - I would be proud you got through it. I think yours didn’t really and still doesn’t understsnd

I think it's hard to tell whether things really were as awful as you say, or if actually you're really dwelling on a few bad moments - there's clearly a lot of good you're glossing over, so I suspect it's the latter. As people have said, it's quite possible you had PND - but my concern is actually whether you're ok now; dwelling on sins of the past that you can't change and blowing them up in your head is a classic warning sign of depression/anxiety. I think it sounds like you're giving yourself such a hard time over this and that while you definitely needed some support and kindness then, you might do now, too. I remember when I was really ill I became absolutely obsessed with one time I'd behaved irresponsibly in a job in my 20s and convinced myself it showed I was a terrible human being - I look back now and think I was being ridiculous, but I remember the absolute pit of despair and feeling that I could never redeem myself; if that sounds familiar then I think it might be time to chat to the GP

Oh, and I don't think we need to hear from those who were 'so relaxed' and just happened to have good sleepers. We'd have all been fucking relaxed with good sleepers, you're not special and better, you're lucky.