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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Disgusting

343 replies

StoneofDestiny · 20/11/2020 19:28

AIBU to think it's disgusting that the pay of Nurses, Prison Officers, police, Teachers and other public service workers who have kept us safe despite the risk to themselves throughout this Covid year are the ones that get their pay frozen

OP posts:
user1487194234 · 21/11/2020 08:08

Public sector staff have received full pay throughout the pandemic with no redundancy
Private sector very often have not and many have been paid off
And many of the self employed have been run out to dry
Everyone is going to have to pay a share of the cost of getting out of this mess

LemonTT · 21/11/2020 08:10

My reservations come down to the issue that should have been addressed in the last few elections. Should we pivot towards stimulus or retain austerity measures.

We come back to that challenge now.

The country, large and small businesses will have run through reserves and borrowed heavily. Whilst this needs to get repaid at some point we can still borrow. The international financial institutions have made it clear there doesn’t need to be a rush to repay. In other words they are telling governments to do what is needed to maintain their economies and to stimulate post pandemic.

The defence spending looks like stimulus. The public sector pay freeze looks like a sop to the Tory back benches and goes against the idea of stimulus. The government can put cash into the economy through workers it employs. This gets spent and business benefits.

I understand that maybe the government wants to limit future borrowing and use what it does borrow in other ways. But this needs to be explained as part of its strategy. Not dripped in leaks or as incremental policy shifts.

BTW, It’s true that there will be times when the private and public sector are strong and so are wages. But there are times when the private sector is weak and the public sector is strong due to stimulus. This is strategic and a period of public sector contraction will follow. That’s why public and private pay are often out of sync.

The point is, that whilst you need a strong private sector to maintain a strong public sector, you sometimes need a strong public sector to stimulate the private sector.

The world needs a Marshal plan not austerity 2. Where is the leadership for that?

tinytemper66 · 21/11/2020 08:11

This may not be popular but I believe that if it makes public sector workers' jobs secure then it is a price to pay. Many 1000s of jobs will not be there when we are through this pandemic.
I, for one, am grateful I have a steady secure job. I will tighten my belt if need be. Thousands will be reliant on benefits.

gottakeeponmovin · 21/11/2020 08:14

I am in the private sector and no no one who is getting a payrise let alone the big bonuses referees to here. Many have lost their jobs. Why should the public sector get pay rises in this environment? Particularly when there will be less money coming in. It's not a never ending money pot - we can't have less going in and more going out

Feministicon · 21/11/2020 08:17

@Cocomarine

To be fair, a hell of a lot of other people will have no pay rise this year (again) who are private sector - just the government isn’t responsible for that.

Do I think some public sector workers are underpaid? Yes.
Would I love to see one off bonuses to though in the highest Covid risk roles, and would I be happy to pay for that via taxes? Yes.
Would I like to see tax avoiding large companies pinned down? Hell yes!
But do I think it’s fundamentally wrong to freeze pay for public sector workers at a time of huge unexpected pandemic cost and economic uncertainty? No, I don’t.

I’m still very sympathetic towards those who are underpaid, and admiring of those on the frontline though.

It is wrong if it isn’t MP’s suffering alongside us.
Feministicon · 21/11/2020 08:20

@gottakeeponmovin

I am in the private sector and no no one who is getting a payrise let alone the big bonuses referees to here. Many have lost their jobs. Why should the public sector get pay rises in this environment? Particularly when there will be less money coming in. It's not a never ending money pot - we can't have less going in and more going out
It’s not about getting a bonus (we don’t get those) or a huge pay rise (we certainly don’t get those) it’s a tiny incremental cost of living rise over 3 years that’s being denied when the pay is already woefully low, all the TA’s I know who are single parents work a second job.
ReceptacleForTheRespectable · 21/11/2020 08:26

@laxxy

The government needs to finally start taxing to people with real money in society. The top 1%

I don't disagree but how does this work in practice as you need a global strategy. One of the biggest cause of inequality is inherited wealth but taxing that more is deeply unpopular with the electorate. Everyone criticise's Amazon but everyone shops there.

Totally agree that inherited wealth and assets needs to be taxed more heavily.

I don't order from Amazon though. I boycott them because they are so aggressive in their tax avoidance.

I don't understand why more people don't boycott Amazon tbh? I've kept it up for two years, and not once have I been unable to find the thing I need online from a retailer than pays their fair share of UK tax, usually no more expensive than Amazon. I try to order from more local businesses, when that's not possible I look UK-wide.

Yes, you have to scroll further down the Google list of results, but it's definitely doable.

laxxy · 21/11/2020 08:35

I don't understand why more people don't boycott Amazon tbh? I've kept it up for two years, and not once have I been unable to find the thing I need online from a retailer than pays their fair share of UK tax, usually no more expensive than Amazon. I try to order from more local businesses, when that's not possible I look UK-wide.

I don't get it either particularly when the vast majority disagree with tax avoidance but millions still shop there.
I actually don't find it any cheap either (I don't have prime) except for books but I just get most of them from ebay preowned.

hamstersarse · 21/11/2020 08:42

There is a huge under estimation in the public sector of the value of job security.

Job Insecurity is the biggest stressor there is - far more than workload for example. It represents the most basic human need being violated.

It does seem rather crass to be demanding pay rises at the moment and probably won’t garner much favour with people out of jobs already or with small businesses that have been left to hang out to dry with no actual wage. That is the sacrifice they have been forced to take.

BatSegundo · 21/11/2020 08:51

@LemonTT

My reservations come down to the issue that should have been addressed in the last few elections. Should we pivot towards stimulus or retain austerity measures.

We come back to that challenge now.

The country, large and small businesses will have run through reserves and borrowed heavily. Whilst this needs to get repaid at some point we can still borrow. The international financial institutions have made it clear there doesn’t need to be a rush to repay. In other words they are telling governments to do what is needed to maintain their economies and to stimulate post pandemic.

The defence spending looks like stimulus. The public sector pay freeze looks like a sop to the Tory back benches and goes against the idea of stimulus. The government can put cash into the economy through workers it employs. This gets spent and business benefits.

I understand that maybe the government wants to limit future borrowing and use what it does borrow in other ways. But this needs to be explained as part of its strategy. Not dripped in leaks or as incremental policy shifts.

BTW, It’s true that there will be times when the private and public sector are strong and so are wages. But there are times when the private sector is weak and the public sector is strong due to stimulus. This is strategic and a period of public sector contraction will follow. That’s why public and private pay are often out of sync.

The point is, that whilst you need a strong private sector to maintain a strong public sector, you sometimes need a strong public sector to stimulate the private sector.

The world needs a Marshal plan not austerity 2. Where is the leadership for that?

Absolutely this. There really has been a decade of belt tightening (pay freezes, pay cuts and redundancies) in the public sector for over a decade. You can agree with that or not as you wish, but if you are a small business owner who relies on the public going out to spend you need them to have the confidence and money to do so.
nicebreeze · 21/11/2020 08:55

@musicalfrog

I think everyone would have kept working if they had the choice.

Public sector workers will still have their jobs in the next few years and beyond. Private sector is not so safe.

This is simply not true. Local authorities are in the middle of a finding crisis and I know of a number of people who were key workers in the first wave and have been made redundant just before Christmas.

This is a bigger question than just "should they get a pay rise" this is about valuing and properly funding the public sector. Covid has made it clear that it provides a very real safety net to keep the public safe and societies going. The private sector talk is whataboutery and just encourages a race to the bottom.

We should be giving public sector pay rises and taxing everyone more to pay for Covid measures the government have taken

Feministicon · 21/11/2020 08:56

Well said @BatSegundo and @LemonTT

pointythings · 21/11/2020 09:02

I think there is a huge overestimation in the private sector of how secure public sector jobs are. I'm NHS, and unless you're front line clinical there isn't a lot of job security at all. I'm on a fixed term redeployment contract that ends in March - I may get an extension, I may not. I may find another redeployment post, I may not. And I know a lot of people who are in this situation.

I also think it's pretty hypocritical to go on about how bad things are in the private sector. Yes, things are bloody tough now and I sympathise, but in the public sector we get pay freezes in the bad times, then we get more pay freezes in the good times and we fall further and further behind. At least in the private sector there are periods when there is some wage growth.

bigtimefood · 21/11/2020 09:12

I find this thread quite incredible actually. The "well we're all suffering" "they're lucky to have a job" comments are quite something.

Yes, we are all suffering, however public sector workers count for 17% of UK employees, and not all of those frontline workers. Frontline workers put their lives on the line, they work 24/7 they miss Christmas with their families, bank holidays and this year, they went out to work to protect the public, putting their life and their families lives at risk in an unprecedented situation whilst everybody else stayed home, the majority being paid 80% of their wages to do so (don't forget that there weren't any holidays, days our l, meals out, after school activities to pay for) This is nobody's fault, but remember how proud we were of our key workers and the clapping each Thursday night to show our appreciation ? So they deserve a national clap but not a pay rise to match inflation so that they can actually afford to live whilst they do a sometimes thankless job day in day out because they care. They don't receive a yearly bonus, they don't receive commission, they don't have the opportunity to negotiate their pay, yes it's a choice but somebody has to do it and if they didn't, we'd all be stuffed! I also appreciate the private sector too makes the world go round, but the benefits are there to be taken.
The average UK salary is £32,000. The average salary of an entry level police officer, paramedic, nurse, teacher is £21000. At even a 1% pay increase per year it would take 42 years to catch up to that average UK salary. Go figure.

PhilCornwall1 · 21/11/2020 09:14

[quote laxxy]@PhilCornwall1 That's great! Who needs statistical evidence when we have your anecdotal experience 🙄[/quote]
I could point to many roles that pay more in the private sector. IT, Finance, Project/Programme Management (are they worth it?). Simply compare the two and the private sector comes out on top.

Move further up the ladder and the gap between private and public is greater.

Hopoindown31 · 21/11/2020 09:19

Yes - lots of them took pay cuts of 20% or more back in March.*

Not key workers. Furlough is also a bit different as those individuals were not working during that period.

According to the trade press Tesco's workers received a 3.3% pay rise in October. It isn't stellar by any means but many key workers in the public sector can only dream of such a pay rise.

We are talking about cost of living pay increases here btw.

hamstersarse · 21/11/2020 09:20

@bigtimefood

I don’t think you’ve ever worked in the private sector. But in your head it sounds like some mystical land with magic money trees where we should all live.

Retail are the biggest private sector employers.

Are you so sure they are getting bonuses and pay rises this year?

bigtimefood · 21/11/2020 09:21

[quote hamstersarse]@bigtimefood

I don’t think you’ve ever worked in the private sector. But in your head it sounds like some mystical land with magic money trees where we should all live.

Retail are the biggest private sector employers.

Are you so sure they are getting bonuses and pay rises this year?[/quote]
Ah well that's where you're wrong. I work in the private sector now and DS works in the public sector Wink

hamstersarse · 21/11/2020 09:22

@bigtimefood

Well you should know better then

bigtimefood · 21/11/2020 09:24

[quote hamstersarse]@bigtimefood

Well you should know better then[/quote]
Solid and considered comeback there! Well done 👍🏼

hamstersarse · 21/11/2020 09:25

One thing that occurs to me is privatisation

So many people / most people in the NHS are totally against privatisation of the NHS yet seem to simultaneously campaign to be paid like the private sector.

If people who work for the NHS want to be treated like workers in the private sector...there is something to campaign for. It could be possible,

Hopoindown31 · 21/11/2020 09:25

There is a huge under estimation in the public sector of the value of job security.

There is a huge over-estimation in the private sector of how secure public sector jobs are. I've worked in both and been through rounds of redundancy in both they both seem to have cycles that follow the general economy. The pensions at better in the public sector, the jobs may be slightly more secure, the pay is considerably lower for skilled professionals like me.

Hopoindown31 · 21/11/2020 09:28

So many people / most people in the NHS are totally against privatisation of the NHS yet seem to simultaneously campaign to be paid like the private sector.

Straw man. No-one is doing that. People are asking for cost of living pay rises so they don't actually end up having real terms pay cuts. For workers like me to be paid like the private sector would cost the government many more billions than giving an inflation linked pay rise.

laxxy · 21/11/2020 09:28
  • I could point to many roles that pay more in the private sector. IT, Finance, Project/Programme Management (are they worth it?). Simply compare the two and the private sector comes out on top.

Move further up the ladder and the gap between private and public is greater.

Who has said otherwise? However the vast majority of the population aren't earning 80k in the public or private sector are they?

hamstersarse · 21/11/2020 09:28

@bigtimefood

What is your view on retail workers?

Do they factor into your thinking?

I get the feeling it’s these mystical fat cat bankers who form your view of private sector workers