Ban on new petrol/diesel cars by 2030 - AIBU to be excited?

[almostautumn]

The government are set to announce a ban on sales of new petrol and diesel cars by 2030. As someone who lives in a polluted city (London) and worries about the effect that carbon emissions are having on my family’s health, I’m so excited by this news because I think it will really change our children’s lives for the better. And it’s fantastic that it’s only 10 years away!

www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-54981425

I do wonder if at some point we're going to have automated cars which drop us at home / where ever and tootle off to recharge themselves. Perhaps in a vast underground car park.

I'm not against the concept, but the cars aren't affordable and I haven't seen a proposed solution for people who don't have a private parking space.

Also waiting to hear what the govt will tax instead of petrol to get their money back on fuel tax lost.

It’s not going to happen. Yes, 9/10 years is a long time but it’s still not long enough.
No one is going to buy an electric car (new or secondhand) unless they are sure they can easily access a charging point.
UK governments (of any colour) are notoriously poor regarding infrastructure planning and implementation. Imagine a typical town in this country - row upon row upon row of terraced houses or block after block of flats. Where will they charge their cars? Are we going to see the building of ‘car charging parks’? Where will the land come from? A few chargers at your local petrol station and at motorway service stations isn’t going to cut it. And are we seriously suggesting an average road running umpteen power cables to lampposts?
We recently hired a Tesla for a weekend treat and it was fabulous, so I’m not against EV’s, but we have to be realistic - 9/10 years is pie in the sky.
One other thought - power cuts anyone?

@womaninatightspot

I do wonder if at some point we're going to have automated cars which drop us at home / where ever and tootle off to recharge themselves. Perhaps in a vast underground car park.

Hyperloop is the future, but not within the lifetime of anyone alive now.

@FixTheBone

The lease includes insurance (was £70 on my old ford c-max) and breakdown (£10/month (£120/yr) and servicing& mot - roughly £120 per year.

So i spend £407 / month everything included.

On my old c-max, despite owning it outright, the running cost was £350 / month.

You're comparing apples and oranges, any old(er) vehicle is going to incur additional expenses and repairs. A tesla won't be immune from needing a new compressor later in life just as a brand new Ford won't require much in the way of servicing/repair costs.

Yes you'll save on clutches and timing belts etc but you will need a new battery every 5 or so years and there will be other issues as they age, electrics (in general) don't like being exposed to the elements and that's not going to change. You'll probably find these repairs will cost more than their ICE counterparts as you need additional equipment/training to safely work on EVs. You're c-max compressor is just a remove and replace unit, there's not much to it, whereas on an EV you not only have to remove and replace but recalibrate the management systems as the ecu needs to communicate withe compressor to work out it's required load etc. That ain't gonns be done for free or cheaply, especially when optimistic estimates are that only 30% of garages will be ev trained by 2030.

Goosefoot, that's how I was brought up on a council estate with bus stops everywhere and people mostly worked locally or got the tube and train into London ( most worked in shore ditch or similar areas) this was the 70s. I walked to school in all weathers ( it was a long walk to secondary school) and everyone on our estate all knew each other.
Cars were about , but they were a luxury and many more didn't have one than did.
Then it changed in the mid 70 s to early 80s and people started to want one car each and move right out to nicer areas and big out of town shops and retail parks sprung up and car usage went through the roof! People lost touch with each other and generations of families all moved away.
To go back to any of that would mean more public transport and more local shops. Are people really ready to give up their cars or move back into towns?
People need facilities. Car usage has changed people's behavior so much.

Are we going to see the building of ‘car charging parks’? Where will the land come from? A few chargers at your local petrol station and at motorway service stations isn’t going to cut it.

Exactly - and as if people would want to leave their cars in some remote charging park where they might get stolen, or would want to walk a mile there before their commute, or in order to bring the car home to load, e.g. luggage for a holiday or other goods they might want to shift.

Totally impractical unless the government can miraculously give everyone a charging space outside their house.

To all the people saying all the cheap electricity/ free charging once the government have to fill the fuel tax gap - that’s why we jumped on the ev wagon nice and early

@MrsMiaWallis

You are spending 57 a month more than you used to. That's not saving.

Ok - I get people don't get the numbers.... It's simple. I'm going to echo @FixTheBone here.

I have two EV's on one I pay £200 per month and one is £400 per month.

Those figures get me a £36000 and a £60000 brand new car for 2 years each. (and yes I do look for deals...). I spend roughly as much per month as I was spending previously.

I have a small electricity cost to charge them although there are many out there charging for free. If you are happy to put yourself out a little it is possible. I spend around £350 per year on electricity instead of around £3700 in petrol. This can be deducted from my costs. I am saving the difference. This is a £279 per month saving. So for £321 per month I get to drive 2 cars that are new.

I have excluded insurance and tax from these numbers although that does add more savings. Insurance is roughly the same, but tax saves me about £600 per year as well. So I could also take that off my costs. So technically (excluding insurance) I am paying £600 per month for a petrol equivalent that would be £929 per month. Although I couldn't afford that so don't!

It is also possible to buy cheaper electric cars. One of my previous ones was £99 per month for 2 years. You can certainly get them for less than £200 per month currently OR if you prefer to buy there are many at the £5-8k bracket now. But this is because they are still relatively new - you will have to wait to find £500 and £1k ev's as none of them are really old enough yet to fall into this bracket.

It's been very poorly thought out and will cost millions to implement.
Electricity prices will go up and up and cars will start to be a thing of the past. Unless they want to start running community buses to get people to work I can't see how many people will be able to stay at work. So many depend on them for school runs and then going to work. Unless it's just a big conspiracy to get more working from home and have mums staying in the home to do working and child care as already happened this year?
The ones that can't wfh will be stuffed of course.
If buses run to where people need them maybe that could work , but you can bet that they won't!

remember how outraged many people were about the light bulbs ban or charge for plastic shopping bags.

this will be the same. people will afapt if they have to.

Exactly they will adapt and the infrastructure will improve. Those of us on the thread who have already made the change are very happy with our electric cars.

To be fair pink those were easier to implement! Light bulbs don't last as long these days so I'm skeptical they have made much difference to anything really but I could be wrong there. The bag tax was good and worked well but people do still buy the odd plastic one , mostly that has gone well. This is huge though! If you didn't have to charge them up it might be ok but that is a big stumbling block.

[quote Prozacyogurt]@FixTheBone

The lease includes insurance (was £70 on my old ford c-max) and breakdown (£10/month (£120/yr) and servicing& mot - roughly £120 per year.

So i spend £407 / month everything included.

On my old c-max, despite owning it outright, the running cost was £350 / month.

You're comparing apples and oranges, any old(er) vehicle is going to incur additional expenses and repairs. A tesla won't be immune from needing a new compressor later in life just as a brand new Ford won't require much in the way of servicing/repair costs.

Yes you'll save on clutches and timing belts etc but you will need a new battery every 5 or so years and there will be other issues as they age, electrics (in general) don't like being exposed to the elements and that's not going to change. You'll probably find these repairs will cost more than their ICE counterparts as you need additional equipment/training to safely work on EVs. You're c-max compressor is just a remove and replace unit, there's not much to it, whereas on an EV you not only have to remove and replace but recalibrate the management systems as the ecu needs to communicate withe compressor to work out it's required load etc. That ain't gonns be done for free or cheaply, especially when optimistic estimates are that only 30% of garages will be ev trained by 2030.[/quote]
I'm afraid you too have swallowed the propaganda.

Batteries are not wearing out and don't need replacing. There is already history from 2012 and the batteries are fine.

EV's are much more simple than petrol engines and more simple to fix.

Training - yes different but easier and garages don't want to do it as repairs are less costly and servicing much much cheaper and simpler.

...You'll be telling me I can't drive my EV in the rain next.... you sound a bit gullible if you think normal cars don't have electrics, and don't have ECU systems that need calibrating.

@pinkbalconyrailing

remember how outraged many people were about the light bulbs ban or charge for plastic shopping bags.

this will be the same. people will afapt if they have to.

Having to remember to take a bag to the supermarket or pay 10p for one is very different and doesn't have a huge impact on someone's day to day life.

This will be be very difficult for those in rural areas and those without driveways or garages.

It's been very poorly thought out and will cost millions to implement.

I'd be pretty amazed if it could be rolled out for millions. My best guess would be millions just for the charging infrastructure. In reality to even attempt to implement it effectively it would most probably run into the billions.

More money when covid and probably Brexit will cost trillions and has to be paid back too? Where's it all coming from to roll out this idea too? The ones on here happy with their EV's are only ok because there are not that many around. Wait till there are millions on the roads! Will be a different story then I bet! More money on taxes on electricity.. all those extra chargers taking up space...

It’s never going to work. There are just too many issues against it. Mainly being that there are still vast and remote parts of the country where it’s impossible for this to be made compulsory due to such poor infrastructure.

EV's are much more simple than petrol engines and more simple to fix.

You have probably never tried to build one. There are fewer moving parts but they are very complex machines.

Headline on the lease costs seem to be if you already spend a lot of money on cars you can get an electric car for a similar overall cost. That doesn't mean they're affordable for most people

I think it can be done (with a possible exemption for very rural areas like the Scottish Highlands), but I think the strategic decisions need to be taken now and construction of the infrastructure needs to start soon. So far I'm seeing none of that. It's all stick no carrot from the government.

Charging points are what's needed of course. Over 40 million of them. Three main approaches I can see, and I expect they will all be used in different areas.

Rapid charge stations, that basically replace petrol stations. Good at possibly requiring the least new infrastructure. Good for the government, leave the private sector to it. Bad for drivers who must make a detour and wait - it's a real technological challenge to move electrical energy as fast as pouring petrol. Bad for electricity generation since everyone will charge when they need to, therefore bad for the overall transition to renewals.

Charging at private car parking. Also good if you consider the government needing to do nothing to be good. Good for electricity generation if combined with a system that provides discount charging when there's spare renewable generation. Bad for the poorest who are least likely to have off-street parking at home. Probably tough to actually upgrade the electricity distribution networks.

Roadside charging. Good in areas with older housing that can't accommodate off-street parking this seems like the best option. Same, perhaps better, at matching demand to electricity supply. I think easier to handle power distribution - heavy duty cables can be run from the nearest substation under the pavement during charging point installation. But this is the option that requires the government to pay up and build it.

What I think we need is serious work by the government to make it happen, especially in deprived inner-city areas. What I think we'll get is it being left to "the market" and the worst off being left behind.

And then of course the question arises of who ultimately foots the bill. Who I think morally should pay are the oil companies and the car makers. But if they're charged an extra tax they'll just pass it on making new cars more expensive, counterproductive to taking fossil fuelled cars off the roads. So who I think will end up paying is the little people. Either through general taxation or through tax on EV charging.

another thought from a disabled person here. as i said, i have a motability car and it’s changed my life. in 3 years i can trade it in for another brand new car and maybe the tech will have improved and i can go fully electric.

even if public transport magically became workable it still doesn’t work for me as i’m unable to walk to a bus/train/tram stop in order to use it. with the car i can drive to the area i need to be in, use my walking aid to make the minimum distance required to get whatever i need, then back to the car. i have a blue badge so accessibility is usually not an issue.

i know this is all years down the line and i’ll probably be long gone before it becomes an issue for me, but it will be an issue for other disabled people.

it’s also an issue for non-disabled people who can’t access a cheap car through the Motability scheme. as a country we’re just not built for public transport any more.

I think this is exciting news, but then I'm an electric car owner already and have been indoctrinated into the electric car way of life. Fwiw, mine tows up to 2,250kgs so plenty to take my horses for a trip. Its very powerful and you don't even notice the trailer behind, you have to be careful not to be too heavy on the accelerator as the hirses wouldn't like being taken 0-60 in 3.7 seconds. I'll admit there are issues with range and charging though with a trailer attached.

There are some super exciting cars coming out in the next few years which will make electric car ownership for the rural market something that is actually feasible. I'm hoping I'll be able to get a Rivian when it is released to the UK market, now that is a proper country electric car. It can have a 400+ mile range and will handle the toughest terrain.

There are many hurdles to overcome, like providing enough charging points etc. Ideally everyone should be able to charge at home, that is where the joy of an electric car is. Never having to worry about fuel and for me knowing that I have a solar array that charges my car and any extra electricity comes from renewable sources (as I chose a renewable tariff). But we need to do something don't we and electric does seem to be the way the car market is going.

I think it's great. We're not doing enough to combat climate change anyway, but it's good we're doing this. Also deals with air pollution which is a massive public health issue.

A lot of the things people are saying on this thread are either not true or classic whataboutery e.g. that we'll get the electric from fossil fuels anyway (the government has also announced more green energy measures), that electric cars are worse for the environment because of batteries etc. The fact is that electric cars are better for the climate and air quality than normal ones.

The government definitely does need to get on it with the infrastructure though otherwise it won't work. They are probably betting on this measure pushing the market to invest in electric car development (and we won't be the only country doing this) which should result in them becoming much cheaper and better.

Anyway the ban is only on sales of new FF cars, so the second hand market can carry on. There'll still be FF cars on the road in 2045.

Those of us on the thread who have already made the change are very happy with our electric cars.

We would have made the change but we need to tow. Unfortunately, the only cars currently approved for towing are waaaay out of our price range... despite us being middle class.