Ban on new petrol/diesel cars by 2030 - AIBU to be excited?

[almostautumn]

The government are set to announce a ban on sales of new petrol and diesel cars by 2030. As someone who lives in a polluted city (London) and worries about the effect that carbon emissions are having on my family’s health, I’m so excited by this news because I think it will really change our children’s lives for the better. And it’s fantastic that it’s only 10 years away!

www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-54981425

It really can't happen!

Me: Live rurally, self employed, can do 100mile/day.
DH: works all over UK, carries a lot of kit with him

We don't have proper bloody broadband, or electricity that can be relied on in poor weather, or water that survives tractor damage; or roads that are immune to flooding. Or street lights. Or a driveway.

I work across a forest, river valleys and lots of very out of the way places. I barely keep mobile phone coverage. There's no space/appropriate places for petrol stations as it is, let alone electric charging bays.

As far as I can see DH will be fine if his work change to vans for all staff. I will have to do the same!

I would imagine that most people outside London and other urban areas will be as flummoxed by this as I am.

We will be left driving ever more unreliable, ageing cars, fuel for them will go through the roof in an attempt to make us change but we won't be able to, due to lack of reliable infrastructure. The poorest in society, working people who need personal transport will be hardest hit.

That's why being very fucking green is hard, gets ignored by many. It is impossible to live like that if the infrastructure around you isn't the equivalent of a main town or city.

Maybe some posters here who are so adamant that we should all change could ponder the realities. Remember, some of us don't have reliable mobile phone, television, radio, internet supply... and our electricity is prone to power cuts. How are we going to make that change?

The other thing that seems particularly relevant right now, is paying higher lease costs to go electric and make savings on fuel costs means that even when you aren't doing any miles (redundancy, covid, lockdown etc.) you don't see those savings. Lease a petrol/ diesel car at 200 per month and spend 200 on fuel means it only costs 200 per month if you're not doing normal mileage. 400 on a EV and you're still spending 400 even if the car is sat outside your house all month.

We will be left driving ever more unreliable, ageing cars, fuel for them will go through the roof in an attempt to make us change

Not only will fuel prices go through the roof, fuel will become increasingly hard to find as garages close. Diesel may be easier than petrol as will still be needed for heavy machinery.

I think it's important to remember that we have been through this kind of change before (anyone remember leaded petrol) and it took time and legislation to make that happen but it did happen

www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/anything-goes-throwback-thursday/throwback-thursday-1989-switchover-unleaded-petrol

@the80sweregreat

Goosefoot, that's how I was brought up on a council estate with bus stops everywhere and people mostly worked locally or got the tube and train into London ( most worked in shore ditch or similar areas) this was the 70s. I walked to school in all weathers ( it was a long walk to secondary school) and everyone on our estate all knew each other. Cars were about , but they were a luxury and many more didn't have one than did. Then it changed in the mid 70 s to early 80s and people started to want one car each and move right out to nicer areas and big out of town shops and retail parks sprung up and car usage went through the roof! People lost touch with each other and generations of families all moved away. To go back to any of that would mean more public transport and more local shops. Are people really ready to give up their cars or move back into towns? People need facilities. Car usage has changed people's behavior so much.

Yup, this is the issue, as cars became the norm it has reshaped not only public transport options, but the shape of cities, towns, and villages, in a way that is not environmentally sustainable.

And it's not like that is the only downside - we've discovered that the new shape of communities is also not great for the physical or mental health of residents. Guess what - most people don't like to commute to work for hours each day, be it in a car or on a train. Who'd have thought!

I think we need to be asking - why has there been this move away from talking about reshaping communities to require fewer cans and have less need for even public transport? Why are we talking about replacing all of the vehicles with electric, as if that is a real solution? Who benefits if we do not have walkable communities, a geographically distributed economy, affordable housing available around every industrial area and downtown, and extended families that can generally find work and housing within a reasonable distance of each other?

I think the answer to that is faily straightforward to figure out.

Maybe some posters here who are so adamant that we should all change could ponder the realities. Remember, some of us don't have reliable mobile phone, television, radio, internet supply... and our electricity is prone to power cuts. How are we going to make that change?

According to some on this thread the answer to any and all queries is buy a Tesla. 🤣 In reality you're 100% right to be concerned. It must be lovely for some living in a bubble where you do short drives and can charge your car at will on your own drive whilst not considering that others are not in the same position.

At the moment, I'm another who would like an EV but can't afford one. A previous poster mentioned £250 for a charging point - in our house, add several times that to get the front garden changed into a driveway, including removing a good few tonnes of soil (so I can't just DIY it). Charge somewhere else? Well maybe, but points are still limited in my area, I'd be making a journey and waiting to charge for the purpose and could easily find I arrive to find them all full.

Then there's the car itself. At the low end of the second hand market EVs just aren't here yet. Battery degradation is a real issue with older models. And considering it's not in the car maker's interests to make a battery that doesn't want replacing after 5 years, I'm sceptical battery degradation will ever not be an issue.

There is currently only 1 all electric vehicle capable of towing over 2 tonnes. That is the Tesla that sells for over £80k.

That is going to cause massive problems for the farming, equestrian and caravaning communities.

There are a couple more that can tow 1-2 tonnes but again premium vehicles.

How are we supposed to replace an old landrover or pick up if the alternatives are going to cost more than double!?

work across a forest, river valleys and lots of very out of the way places. I barely keep mobile phone coverage. There's no space/appropriate places for petrol stations as it is

So how do you get fuel for your vehicle?

Im furious that successive governments have made us into car junkies by allowing out of town shopping and retail parks so popular and taken money away from public transport and infrastructure. They were all keen on the petrol revenue then ; didn't give a stuff about the environment back then of course.
Houses were expensive for us so we had to move away from family and hence needed a car to get around. Without any transport of your own these days you are pretty much hamstrung unless you live in Or close to London or another big city with decent transport links. Even then it's not perfect or safe. Night workers and key workers need to get to work and might not be able to run or afford these new EV cars.
What do they do?

[quote wonkylegs]I think it's important to remember that we have been through this kind of change before (anyone remember leaded petrol) and it took time and legislation to make that happen but it did happen

www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/anything-goes-throwback-thursday/throwback-thursday-1989-switchover-unleaded-petrol[/quote]
But garages exist. Quick top ups of fuel. The cars didn't change how far they could travel etc. That's no new infrastructure needed and a decade or so to make that change.

Goosefoot makes some great points that really need to be addressed!

@Ifailed

work across a forest, river valleys and lots of very out of the way places. I barely keep mobile phone coverage. There's no space/appropriate places for petrol stations as it is

So how do you get fuel for your vehicle?

I'm no expert but surely it doesn't take a lot of thinking. At a guess if you know you won't have access to a petrol station for a while you can fill up petrol cans and shove them in the boot. You can't really do that with an electric car.

These cars will become the new ' white goods' ; pack up on you after five years and the warranty has run out for good! It'll be a scam , the same as washing machines are now.
Theft rates will also increase as they will be happily recharging away in these ' recharging areas' then someone will steal it before you get back to your car!
Can't bloody wait for any of it :( and I thought 2020 was a crappy year!

@Ifailed

work across a forest, river valleys and lots of very out of the way places. I barely keep mobile phone coverage. There's no space/appropriate places for petrol stations as it is

So how do you get fuel for your vehicle?

I fill up my car at a petrol station on the outskirts of those places, it takes a few minutes. I can travel a few hundred miles before I need to do it again.

You can miss the point if you like but it still stands... additional infrastructure will be needed and some places will not be as amenable to those changes as towns and cities are. These are places that have few of those amenities as it is!

Or do you want to cut down some trees to make an EV station? That's what would be required out here, destruction of areas of a forest - which isn't allowed for anything else, not houses, car parks, shops, mobile phone masts, cable television/internet etc.

I live in a Victorian neighbourhood of terraces. Nobody has a drive way. Are we all supposed to just have extension cables out of our windows and across the pavement (and then usually down the road and maybe across it as you don't get to park outside your own house)?

And yes to jerry cans, for the car - and the back up generator in the last house we lived in

Why on earth would theft rates increase 80s? People park their cars on the street/in car parks/at service stations all the time and they’re not constantly getting stolen. A car isn’t magically easier to steal because it’s plugged in. They’re damn near impossible to steal without the keys now anyway.

At a guess if you know you won't have access to a petrol station for a while you can fill up petrol cans and shove them in the boot

you can at most 30 litres of petrol in two containers.

Anyway, why the obsession with a few exceptions, that vast majority of people in the UK don't live the back of beyond, and for those that do there will exemptions. All this WhatAboutMe is usually what holds us back from going forward.

Meh. Won't happen before I retire anyway.
10 years for the ban on new ones. Add 10 years for various delays etc. So 20.
Then in the years 18 and 19 car manufacturer will have the busiest years in a history. Then add 15 years until the new cars get too old and need to be changed. By then there will be a smartarse making millions by getting cars in from elsewhere and changing driving sides for a very tidy profit.
So actually, it won't probably happen in my lifetime. And I am early 30s.

Anyway, why the obsession with a few exceptions, that vast majority of people in the UK don't live the back of beyond, and for those that do there will exemptions. All this WhatAboutMe is usually what holds us back from going forward.

It's not just a few areas though. The whole blooming country doesn't have the infrastructure to support electric vehicles as being the default. This wont magically change in 20 or 30 years time let alone the proposal of 9 years time.

@Ifailed

At a guess if you know you won't have access to a petrol station for a while you can fill up petrol cans and shove them in the boot

you can at most 30 litres of petrol in two containers.

Anyway, why the obsession with a few exceptions, that vast majority of people in the UK don't live the back of beyond, and for those that do there will exemptions. All this WhatAboutMe is usually what holds us back from going forward.

It's about not wanting to leave people behind. About saying an "I'm Alright Jack" attitude is not OK.

I think it can’t come soon enough. 2030 all petrol and diesel should be banned not just new vehicles. Charging points will come but you will charge at home over night 99% of the time. The range will also increase and if you need long range that is what you will buy. It’s also possible to charge anywhere where you have access to a plug. If you own a car I think you really should have a designated parking if no drive. That would help with parking congestion as well.

@Bakeachocolatecaketoday

Presumably you're paying two monthly payments for leasing the batteries as well as the other running costs? Or did you buy the batteries? I need to change my car and would love to go electric, but I'm a pensioner whose income will not be increasing a great deal in future, and I don't want to commit to battery leasing payments for eternity. The batteries are a considerable commitment and I really think they need to do something about the way they're currently being charged if the majority are going to be able to go electric.

I'm just musing on how the charging cars will work I guess! I have visions of loads of cars all charging away at the services whilst the owners are having a cuppa in the service station ( if that will be still be allowed!) then discovering it gone when they get back.
I've no idea how it will work and most take around forty minutes to charge I believe?
Anyway, if it happens I'll have to live with it and change my behavior etc, but I can see so many flaws with it all and how people will charge them up will be interesting to see especially those without driveways etc.

I’d be horrified...if I thought it was actually going to happen in 10 years