To thinking asking mothers educational level at booking appointment is shaming

[Ivybutterfly]

At my midwife booking appointment I was asked what age I left full time education. I remember the same question last time. They ask whether you have a degree or not. I found it rude and inappropriate. It is also irrelevant. I just sucked it up. My DH on the other hand was raging. He said it was shaming and disgusting. I agree. I think I am going to complain. Why so they ask such a rude question which has no relevance to pregnancy?

@Ivybutterfly

I am working class. First in my family to get a degree. People should read through the posts before being so nasty and personal. Thanks.

Same here. I still think it's worth you just looking back at your wording to see if there is something in what people are saying, rather than being so defensive.

What I was trying to explain is that in a (well meaning) reflex reaction to defend and protect a demographic, you've actually reinforced a negative stereotype of that demographic.

When you say you feel bad for some 'poor working class mother' you imply that you think they are to be pitied etc. That's how your wording has come across, that you think that demographic will be shamed if someone knows they don't have a degree. Therefore implying that not having a degree is shameful or embarrassing...

A mother's educational level is the strongest determinant of a child's education achievement. Not the father, the mother.
This is in no way discrediting mothers without a degree who may also be very bright. However, lower education achievement is linked to deprivation by Public Health England. That is based on years of longitudinal research. Without further education, in the case of relationship breakdown-a common phenomenon-mothers have a lower income. Low income has a direct impact on school readiness, long term education and health.
So your offence is misplaced. I am concerned about the anger of your educated partner just for the fact that you were asked.
Statistics on information such as this as used to justify economic input into interventions aimed to minimise inequality.
So the answers are collected and processed and fed to local commissioning groups and health authorities.

Early intervention, i.e. within the first formative 1001 days from conception, is THE most fundamental in terms of a child's long term outcome. How do you think the govt came to the conclusion that 2 year nursery funding was necessary for low income families?
Because data such as this was linked to kids achievement at school aged 4 and beyond, and clear correlations were drawn that poorer children had poorer speech and language skills, toilet training, reading and so on.
We have a social and moral responsibility to give children an equal chance.
Midwives and health visitors are specialist practitioners working on a public health level.
It isnt about shaming-which says a lot about your views about education given most people do not go to university-but about population and public health need and improving long term outcomes.
Look at Marmot's work on life expectancy.
When your child goes to school they will ask if you are eligible for free school meals and if you are entitled to benefits. That is to ensure that the child gets support , extra funding and lunch, to prevent the patterns which are linked to poverty such as low attendance, lack of ability to attend extra curricular experiences and earlier school leavers.
Look at the wider context.

@Ivybutterfly

I worry for some poor working class mother who goes there alone and is made to feel worthless. I also find it condescending. People just assume that if you don’t have a degree you won’t breastfeed and will smoke and drink? That is shameful classism.

Why would a working class mother be offended by this question?

Are you making an assumption that working class mothers are less likely to have a degree?

Why else would you think working class mothers would be offended and find it condescending unless you were the one making assumptions.

They need to know because this country greatly helps uneducated mothers and when they ask the race it’s to offer unfaltering solid help and support minorities

It is unreasonable not to ask the father too.

It's also unreasonable not to explain why the data are collected.

For two people who claim to have three degrees between them, the OP and her DH are dreadfully ignorant about how research and statistics work. It isnt just about you, its about collecting data on the wider cohort of women having babies, to understand maternal and child outcomes better.

Did either of you do any primary research, or read any research while you were studying for your degrees? Did you never wonder where the data came from?

OP why do you think a lack of degree is something to be ashamed of?

Smoking at term and lack of breastfeeding are both heavily linked to poverty by the way. Poverty is linked to lack of education and employment. Both of these affect health of babies short amd long term.

PS: shock news just in - some middle class women dont have degrees either! Extra, extra, read all abaht it!

@JeanneFrench

It is unreasonable not to ask the father too.

But there's no evidence that paternal education level impacts on the baby so why would they? There would be zero point in collecting that data (and hence it would probably be a breach of GDPR)

There is a causal link between maternal education and child health, but it’s not as strong as it first appears once you consider that some factors which may lead to a higher level of education (such as personal motivation) may also lead to a healthier lifestyle. See www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6519047/ for example.

That said, if the current method of collating this information is coming across as condescending and making mothers who have a lesser degree of formal education feel shamed or judged, it’s obviously not a great system and the NHS should be looking at ways of identifying women who might need more support without appearing to be intrusive and judgmental.

@JeanneFrench

It is unreasonable not to ask the father too.

This isn't related as strongly to the outcome for the child. So there is no, evidence based reason to ask. Asking unnecessary questions is ethically wrong.

@Silverstripe

There is a causal link between maternal education and child health, but it’s not as strong as it first appears once you consider that some factors which may lead to a higher level of education (such as personal motivation) may also lead to a healthier lifestyle. See www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6519047/ for example.

That said, if the current method of collating this information is coming across as condescending and making mothers who have a lesser degree of formal education feel shamed or judged, it’s obviously not a great system and the NHS should be looking at ways of identifying women who might need more support without appearing to be intrusive and judgmental.

But it's literally one question in a series of what seems like thousands. I highly doubt a midwife gives a shit, just records it and moves on.

Personally, I think it's fine. As lots of people have said, it's just a profiling tool. Mothers educational attainment is a strong predictor of a number of outcomes. Like any statistical tool, it's not meant to explain every scenario but viewed over a large sample, it will be a useful proxy. It doesn't mean if a woman left school early worse outcomes follow, it just means that in a large sample of women who left school early, more examples of poor outcomes will be seen. They use the same profiling looking at weight, lifestyle etc.

Obesity in children also linked to income.

@Ivybutterfly

I am working class. First in my family to get a degree. People should read through the posts before being so nasty and personal. Thanks.

But YOU were the person who linked having a degree with being working class, by saying that a poor working class mother would be offended.

FWIW I also grew up in a working class family. I was also the first in my family to get a degree.

I am not sure why that is important for you to tell us.

Your own post stated that you though poor working class smothers would be offended. Why do you think poor working class mothers, in particular, would be offended at that question?

Unless you assumed that poor working class mothers were less likely to have a degree I guess.

But it's literally one question in a series of what seems like thousands. I highly doubt a midwife gives a shit, just records it and moves on.

I understand that but it’s not about whether the midwife gives a shit - it’s about whether any mother feels alienated by her health care providers. I’m not saying the information shouldn’t be collated, just that if OP’s right that it’s coming across as condescending and judgmental, maybe more work needs to be put into explaining why this information is collated and why it’s not related to personal judgment.

It's not rude OP, they are asking as it can be linked to income levels, birth weight, breastfeeding etc. and it's there so they can offer certain services to pregnant women.

If you dont want to say certain things you can always say you dont wish to disclose that information. I don't agree with you and your partner though.

I was asked this question at the first HV visit once baby was born. It's written in his red book! Second child's red book didn't include the same question.

@Mylittlepony374

It's relevant. Higher educated= less risk of preterm birth, low birth weight and other things I can't remember. They're not asking to shame you, they're asking to ensure they provide best care for you and baby.

Balls. I have a PHD and my DD was born at 31 weeks and weighed a grand total of 2lbs!

@Silverstripe

But it's literally one question in a series of what seems like thousands. I highly doubt a midwife gives a shit, just records it and moves on.

I understand that but it’s not about whether the midwife gives a shit - it’s about whether any mother feels alienated by her health care providers. I’m not saying the information shouldn’t be collated, just that if OP’s right that it’s coming across as condescending and judgmental, maybe more work needs to be put into explaining why this information is collated and why it’s not related to personal judgment.

There are only so many ways you can ask 'what is your highest level of education?' And the OP didn't ask why the question was being asked - if she and her DH had, the midwife may have explained it.

The state has a responsibility to the child from conception.

@Ivybutterfly

I worry for some poor working class mother who goes there alone and is made to feel worthless. I also find it condescending. People just assume that if you don’t have a degree you won’t breastfeed and will smoke and drink? That is shameful classism.

But there is research which shows that women with lower educational achievement are more likely to smoke, less likely to breastfeed, more likely to have a stillbirth, etc.

It’s not about individuals but groups. I guess by asking this question this sort of stuff is discovered. Then steps can be taken to try and reduce health inequalities. And then continue auditing to see if it’s working. 🤷‍♀️