To thinking asking mothers educational level at booking appointment is shaming

[Ivybutterfly]

At my midwife booking appointment I was asked what age I left full time education. I remember the same question last time. They ask whether you have a degree or not. I found it rude and inappropriate. It is also irrelevant. I just sucked it up. My DH on the other hand was raging. He said it was shaming and disgusting. I agree. I think I am going to complain. Why so they ask such a rude question which has no relevance to pregnancy?

They ask it for same reason they ask your race. To measure inequalities by different privileges. Education is one of many.

Ivybutterfly
If your husband is already "raging", I'd love to know how he would have reacted if (or when? I assume it's still being asked?) basically your husband is abusive and you need any support

They wouldn’t ask for no reason! Do you get worked up very easily. There are worse things that can happen

Oops, hadn't finished. It must be possible to decline to answer questions, as GDPR says info gathering must be proportionate/relevant to what you need it for, and population health surveillance questions like this are of marginal relevance to individuals even if they're useful to research. If people were explicitly told questions were for research, they'd probably agree?

I thought that the causes of a baby being preterm were still largely unknown so it's interesting to see it linked to maternal education!

Well, of course I've always blamed myself for my PFB being pre 30wks even though I did nothing wrong & no reason for it happening was ever found!

If only I had gone further than an HND all might have been prevented!

@Tenyearsgone

So are you all saying that because a woman has a degree it's assumed that she will be a better parent?

Because I do find that offensive.

@Tenyearsgone Statistically, the children of women who are more educated have better outcomes - at birth and throughout their lives.

But statistics only apply across a large population, doesn’t mean there aren’t significant number of children/mothers who buck this trend.

@HepLaurenceLB

Being able to read and being able to fully comprehend concepts are two very different things.

as demonstrated by many in this thread :-)

I think that you are being patronising Ivybutterfly. “Oh those poor uneducated mothers being shamed. Lots of working class are actually clever don’t you know”.

These questions are about data collection so that the effectiveness of maternal care can be measured. They will collect data about race, age, educational backgrounds etc and then compare maternal outcomes to make sure that all groups are receiving the same standard of care. It’s not about “Jenny only has her GCSES so don’t use any long words with her’ .

@Tenyearsgone

2. To offer the individual tailored support

So a woman without a degree is assumed to need extra support?

Women are offered extra support for all sorts of reasons - I was offered it because I've been a rape victim. Nothing shaming about that. I didn't need it personally but I am glad it's there particularly for those who can't afford private help (which is what I had).

Its great the way someone takes offence at a question about "shaming" which was intended to lead to better health and care outcomes.

Do you honestly think the NHS has the resource to waste on collecting unnecessary data? This is the time GDPR mania when diversity officers are everywhere and you guys think the NHS is collecting unnecessary data?

They have to justify collecting this data to organisations like the Information Commissioners Office, this gets signed off at multiple levels in a massive bureaucracy (incidentally designed to protect you) - they aren't doing it for fun. They do this because it leads to improved care.

@flaviaritt

What did you think of the question ‘are you and the father related ?’ 😬

No!! They didn’t!

There is a very specific reason why they need to ask this and it is medically relevant.

I wasn't bothered by the question. Perhaps I'm too uneducated to know I'm supposed to feel shamed.

It was a question. I answered it. We moved on.

@WishingHopingThinkingPraying

It's only rude or shaming if YOU and your DH think it's shameful not to have a degree.

They collect this information for numerous reasons. And for the future of women I think it is important to track this. But it's really about statistics so I don't know why you feel so judged.

This.

Its only a shaming question if you think there can be be an answer that can be shamed

@LadyFelsham

Why would anyone feel ashamed and furious if they didn't have a degree?

You make it sound as if she would be forced to admit something that she would rather no-one knew about and I don't think anyone without a degree feels like that. Should they?

You really don't need to feel sorry for anyone or ashamed or angry on non-graduates' behalf because they don't feel any of these things and might think you were being a bit patronising.

This is spot on I think. I know you mean well OP, but if you sit back and think about it you might see how it can come across this way?

It’s condescending to assume someone without a degree would feel worthless being asked the question (also condescending to say “some poor working class mother”). It’s also condescending to assume that degrees don’t cross class lines. No assumptions are being made about the correlations between education level and outcomes, they’re statistically relevant
I agree.

To be honest as a working class mum who was first in my family to get a degree I actually find the OP's attitude far more insulting than a question about maternal education that's grounded in research.

Britain is obsessed with class. It holds people back. Asking a intrusive question about someone’s class will cause distress to some people. Maybe not those who think they are at the top of the heap maybe. But I found it intrusive and rude.
I find you're actually obsessed with class if you genuinely don't see the difference between education level and class.

Your last sentence sums it up: you found it intrusive and rude, but rather than own the fact you found it intrusive you're pretending to be some moral crusader to save the poor working class women (whilst showing your own prejudices)

It’s not irrelevant. When I was in hospital with my youngest over the summer, they asked what job I did. When I asked why they explained it was to gauge what level to pitch their explanations at so you understood.

For this reason, it’s very important!

@Ivybutterfly

At my midwife booking appointment I was asked what age I left full time education. I remember the same question last time. They ask whether you have a degree or not. I found it rude and inappropriate. It is also irrelevant. I just sucked it up. My DH on the other hand was raging. He said it was shaming and disgusting. I agree. I think I am going to complain. Why so they ask such a rude question which has no relevance to pregnancy?

Did you ask WHY they want to know? And WHY it is only the mother's education level?

It will be down to various research studies where educational levels correlate with something or other linked to pregnancy, both or the baby I should imagine.

I worry for some poor working class mother who goes there alone and is made to feel worthless. I also find it condescending.

Your first sentence in this quote is condescending though, hugely! As I said before I think you've reacted in a way you saw as defensive and protective of a demographic but hopefully you can see that your assumptions about that demographic are in fact problematic and come across as patronising?

@Marmite27

It’s not irrelevant. When I was in hospital with my youngest over the summer, they asked what job I did. When I asked why they explained it was to gauge what level to pitch their explanations at so you understood.

For this reason, it’s very important!

What? Now that is offensive.

I am working class. First in my family to get a degree. People should read through the posts before being so nasty and personal. Thanks.

@Ivybutterfly

I am working class. First in my family to get a degree. People should read through the posts before being so nasty and personal. Thanks.

You can still be condescending and patronising to a class (or any other group) that you're part of.

When DD had to go to a child development appointment (she was born 8 weeks early) at about 2 years old I was asked this, and also that of DH. We are both keyworkers but not professionals. DH left school at 16 and went into work. The paediatrician basically implied that because my DH had a basic education and few GCSEs it was a reason for DD to be born early and be slightly developmentally delayed. The fact I had pre-eclampsia was barely mentioned.

We were supposed to have a follow-up appointment but I told the receptionist I wouldn't be returning (which was passed on to my HV. I ignored her too). My husband might have left education at 16 but he's an intelligent sensible man.

DD is fine now, caught up in infant school.

What a load of bullshit answers on this post, like not knowing what your body is doing, an inability to read, preterm labours, worse outcome for mum and baby, all linked to by education apparently.

I left school at 14. I completed two days of year 10. I have friends who attended university, who have worse reading, writing and comprehension skills than I do. I am the "go to" for medical advice in my circle, again, lower level of education.

My child wasnt born pre term, and also, education isnt even always an indicator of wealth.

I wouldnt be annoyed at the question, but I'd be annoyed by some of the assumptions suggested on this thread. I just hope that actual medical professionals do not believe these themselves.

[quote Ivybutterfly]@Hayeahnobut wow. We both have degrees and my husband has gone further than one. Funny how your prejudice came out there.[/quote]
So you want to complain about something that could help and protect someone at risk because you think its shaming to ask the question to people who have higher levels of education?

To say again. You are more concerned about the shame factor than the risk factor. A risk factor that does not affect you or your child. An indicator which might reduce that risk to someone else but will never have any baring on the outcome of your child's health or life chances?

Thats the very definition of being an over priviledged do gooder who doesn't really care about the interests of the person they are trying to protect and are 'outraged' that something isn't 100% amazingly perfect and politely correct.

Have a think about what you are saying and trying to achieve. This one isn't your call to make in terms of a complaint. If you don't want to engage with the question, politely decline to answer it. No harm done to your child.