To thinking asking mothers educational level at booking appointment is shaming

[Ivybutterfly]

At my midwife booking appointment I was asked what age I left full time education. I remember the same question last time. They ask whether you have a degree or not. I found it rude and inappropriate. It is also irrelevant. I just sucked it up. My DH on the other hand was raging. He said it was shaming and disgusting. I agree. I think I am going to complain. Why so they ask such a rude question which has no relevance to pregnancy?

There are lots of factors that influence maternal education- including income, poor health and generational education levels.

These are all things that have a massive impact on early childhood; it’s one of the indicative factors in the huge gap between disadvantaged and advantaged children.

It’s very important that we know which children may need additional support as early as possible- otherwise you’re left with awful outcomes for disadvantaged children as they move through education.

I mean, it would be even better if the government stopped defunding organisations like SureStart.

I’m not sure how much understanding you have of childhood outcomes?

While the question might inform service provision, many, many women (and dad's) are very apprehensive about getting parenting 'right' or being up to the task.
I don't think it's unreasonable to assume that people could read all sorts into a question like that.
It would be so much better if there was less emphasis on processing people and there was the possibility of getting to know and care for them as individuals. We are all more than ticks on a bit of paper

There is a longlasting research being done in NL, called generation R that has shown that children of parents with a lower education have more chance of developing asthma. Also that babies born to parents with a lower income and lower education tend to have more behavioural problems. generationr.nl/algemeen/het-onderzoek/onderzoeksresultaten/

There is a lot more statistical data that they gathered, but these are the ones that correlate with the parents educational level.

I don't have a degree and don't find it condescending if someone asks me if I have one. I DO find it condescending that you think that the question would be shaming. There is nothing shameful with not having a degree so asking about it should be fine.

You can only be ashamed if you let yourself be!

I have a PHD and my DD was born at 31 weeks and weighed a grand total of 2lbs!

you have a PHD and you can't understand the difference between an average risk and your specific experience?

I have a PHD and my DD was born at 31 weeks and weighed a grand total of 2lbs

And I’m sure as someone with a PhD you also understand that individual anecdotal data is not statistically relevant. Of course there will always be exceptions in both directions.

The paediatrician basically implied that because my DH had a basic education and few GCSEs it was a reason for DD to be born early and be slightly developmentally delayed.
I'm pretty sure they implied no such thing

You have also made assumptions here between being working class and attending alone. I.e. being a single mother.
I think this is more about your attitudes around society than concern.

Purely statistical. There is a plan to try to ensure that all British people are educated up to Level 2, and they need some statistics to see how that is going. It’s not personal. It will help local decisions as to what needs to be offered in the area/ generally.

I have a PHD and my DD was born at 31 weeks and weighed a grand total of 2lbs

I'm guessing that PhD wasn't in statistics...

But OP didn't feel alienated. OP didn't feel ashamed. She has happily listed her education attainment level (and her DH's) on this thread.

She is trying to take offence on behalf of other people. It's a paternalistic attitude pretending to be considerate. Having worked in and grown up in deprived communities, I'd said OP's 'outrage' is both out-of-touch and offensive. It takes a certain type of person to complain about something that doesn't negatively affect them and which could positively impact others.
MN however seems to be full of exactly that type of person these days. And if that isn't who OP is, then I'd have concerns about her DH trying to rile her up about something as innocuous as this. It's a bit of warning sign to create so much drama at a pregnancy appointment over a standard question.

Balls. I have a PHD and my DD was born at 31 weeks and weighed a grand total of 2lbs!

I assume you know the difference between what might have to an individual compared to a statistical risk across the population?

Classic AIBU where everyone points out several reasons why OP is being U and OP gets stroppy. As PP have said:

1. Why is not having a degree something to be ashamed of?
2. Its relevant for research and intervention. So who cares whether your DH (who is not and will not be affected) is outraged.

@Ivybutterfly

I worry for some poor working class mother who goes there alone and is made to feel worthless. I also find it condescending. People just assume that if you don’t have a degree you won’t breastfeed and will smoke and drink? That is shameful classism.

I’m working class and I have 4 degrees. The fact that you’re making that correlation (working class = poorly educated) shows your own biases.

Whether you like it or not your child's predicted grades/educational attainment will have been predicted before they start school and that will be based on the education level of you & DH plus post code mainly.

They do it for all kids and although it could be argued it's stupid it's statistically sound enough for general use.

Of course it changes over time with teacher input & testing but it helps to start with a benchmark.

Two sides to every story, perhaps? Have some sympathy for the poor midwife trying to check out whether someone's potentially illiterate or has SEND issues so they can gauge levels of understanding. Would you be more or less offended by someone asking you bluntly, or obliquely like this? They're not judging you ffs! They're trying to help you and make sure you understand what's going and you're capable of giving consent. I was once faced with a situation at work (HR) where a disciplinary hearing fell apart because the main corroborating witness cheerfully informed us that he thought it was his statement but he couldn't be sure because he didn't read or write very well ( ie. not at all). His boss had written the statement out for him and got him to sign it. No one thought to mention the issue and he managed perfectly well at work. Turned out he was severely dyslexic.

many people from poorer countries have had no chance to stay on in school beyond 14. they may have been assisting at home births, and deaths, and rearing babies from a young age. they are quite likely to know more and be a safer more practical mother than someone with a doctorate in astro-physics or early mongolian music. i know several such people. and i would trust them with the care of any vulnerable person, baby or elder, whom i loved.

Agree with this. Reading some of the replies on here I can't help but wonder how on earth people managed to raise babies in earlier times. It's not an offensive question, but it is a ridiculous one. I'm getting sick of MN - so many have the view that having higher education makes you better than everyone else. How having a degree makes you able to be a better mother is beyond me.

it’s about whether any mother feels alienated by her health care providers. I’m not saying the information shouldn’t be collated, just that if OP’s right that it’s coming across as condescending and judgmental, maybe more work needs to be put into explaining why this information is collated and why it’s not related to personal judgment
The OP didn't feel alienated.

She thinks the question was, in her words, 'intrusive and rude'.

She then went on to decide how poor working class women would feel and suggest they would feel ashamed (which highlights her own class assumptions as the question was about maternal education level).

The OP is assuming that working class mums lack education and assuming they will feel shame for their education level. She's not feeling alienated at all.

@eaglejulesk

many people from poorer countries have had no chance to stay on in school beyond 14. they may have been assisting at home births, and deaths, and rearing babies from a young age. they are quite likely to know more and be a safer more practical mother than someone with a doctorate in astro-physics or early mongolian music. i know several such people. and i would trust them with the care of any vulnerable person, baby or elder, whom i loved.

Agree with this. Reading some of the replies on here I can't help but wonder how on earth people managed to raise babies in earlier times. It's not an offensive question, but it is a ridiculous one. I'm getting sick of MN - so many have the view that having higher education makes you better than everyone else. How having a degree makes you able to be a better mother is beyond me.

That is really not what anyone is saying - what they are saying is that there is statistical evidence which shows a link between mother's educational level and childhood outcomes. Given that we know there is a link, why on earth would we not try and address the issue of poor childhood outcomes by identifying those children more at risk (note that this is risk rather than being a certainty) and offering additional support if required.

I'd forgotten the FGM question -- I wasn't actually asked it, as I assume the midwife thought it was statistically unlikely in a white Irish woman having her first pregnancy in her late 30s, but I could see it on my midwife's screen as she scrolled past. This was at a GP surgery in north London.

I was asked it- white Scottish woman first pregnancy in early 40s, also North London. I liked that she just went through the form making no assumptions about anything. Don’t recall an education question but it wouldn’t have struck me as odd so I probably was asked.

"I can't help but wonder how on earth people managed to raise babies in earlier times."

Well, they didn't realise the importance of washing their hands for a very long time so I wouldn't be nostalgic about folk wisdom and so disparaging of education.

The Midwives aren't looking to shame people. There will be a clinical reason and I would suggest you find out at your next appointment.

You could also ask what they do with the data as by law, they must have a purpose for asking for each piece of information.

@Ivybutterfly

I am working class. First in my family to get a degree. People should read through the posts before being so nasty and personal. Thanks.

But you are saying that other 'poor working class' women who don't have a degree or A Levels etc will automatically feel shamed, which shows you feel superior to them, and that's a pretty condescending attitude. Lots of people on this thread have explained why this information may be collected. The NHS aren't really known for collecting data to 'shame' people 🤷‍♀️

But you are saying that other 'poor working class' women who don't have a degree or A Levels etc will automatically feel shamed, which shows you feel superior to them, and that's a pretty condescending attitude
It really is. Well put.

If I were to probably make assumptions it translates as 'I would be ashamed by certain levels of education'.

@rorosemary

There is a longlasting research being done in NL, called generation R that has shown that children of parents with a lower education have more chance of developing asthma. Also that babies born to parents with a lower income and lower education tend to have more behavioural problems. generationr.nl/algemeen/het-onderzoek/onderzoeksresultaten/

There is a lot more statistical data that they gathered, but these are the ones that correlate with the parents educational level.

I don't have a degree and don't find it condescending if someone asks me if I have one. I DO find it condescending that you think that the question would be shaming. There is nothing shameful with not having a degree so asking about it should be fine.

So my daughter has asthma not because her dad and grandparents on both sides have it she has it because I don't have a degree? So why don't her brothers have it then?

Just one more stick to beat mothers with