To thinking asking mothers educational level at booking appointment is shaming

[Ivybutterfly]

At my midwife booking appointment I was asked what age I left full time education. I remember the same question last time. They ask whether you have a degree or not. I found it rude and inappropriate. It is also irrelevant. I just sucked it up. My DH on the other hand was raging. He said it was shaming and disgusting. I agree. I think I am going to complain. Why so they ask such a rude question which has no relevance to pregnancy?

There are clear trends that maternal education level affects childrens' health and education outcomes.

The "home learning" of this year clearly fell more strongly on mothers than fathers. It's not so much that a PhD in astrophysics is going to mean you know what a fronted adverbial is, but you are more likely to have an income that enbles you to provide educational resources, and you're used to looking up information. My education and professional background and family income have massively supported in identifying DS's SpLDs, getting them diagnosed and providing resources to support his learning and get interventions early. Underfunding of SENs massively disadvantages children without that parental advantage.

Fathers tend to be less involved as a default parent, or even absent altogether. They are less statistically relevant than mothers who invest more attention in their children.

Mothers who move away from their families for education/careers may be more socially isolated and prone to PND. Mothers with limited education but good family networks could be more reliant on outdated family advice on parenting rather than reading up on current practice.

Inequality of sex and education exist and if we don't recognise patterns, we can't prioritise supporting individuals who may benefit from additional support and improve outcomes for the next generation. It's not about shaming individuals.

Some kind of study being done on this subject, maybe? If you don't want to answer just leave those blank and if pressed say, equally firmly, 'I'd prefer not to answer those questions'. I wouldn't think it a big deal, though, personally.

@JamminDoughnuts

As do they entering university. Kids whose parents aren't university educated get extra support to apply to university and also offered extra support prior to starting

@flaviaritt

I agree, OP. None of their business, completely irrelevant to your care.

This.

My midwife advised me to have the rhesus jab even though both my husband and I are rhesus negative because she said and I quote "we only have your word your partner is the father".

I was offended for about 5 seconds then I remembered that it's not about me and my feelings, it's about my baby's health and the midwife has to cover all eventualities.

Honestly, I wouldn't worry, it's not intended to be shaming. Maybe a comment along the lines of "these questions are for research purposes and so we can give the best care for your circumstances" would have helped.

"Maybe there is a better way they could find out the information they need."

You think they should find out the information by stealth. Look them up on Linked In or something lol.
I think people would be even more offended if the midwife just assumed based on someone's job or something else.

@2bazookas

Well, it does have some relevance to pregnancy. If a mother has a low level of education the midwife might have more explaining to do and in simpler terms.

Because women without degrees are all thick?

@Ivybutterfly

I worry for some poor working class mother who goes there alone and is made to feel worthless. I also find it condescending. People just assume that if you don’t have a degree you won’t breastfeed and will smoke and drink? That is shameful classism.

I’m as working class as they come and I’m more offended by this patronising drivel than I am by being asked my educational level. Doesn’t take a degree to work out why they’re asking they question, and to know it’s not shaming.

You're the one adding nasty judgements and wild extrapolations to the question. Which says much more about how you view other people than it does about the person who asked you.

@BogRollBOGOF

There are clear trends that maternal education level affects childrens' health and education outcomes.

The "home learning" of this year clearly fell more strongly on mothers than fathers. It's not so much that a PhD in astrophysics is going to mean you know what a fronted adverbial is, but you are more likely to have an income that enbles you to provide educational resources, and you're used to looking up information. My education and professional background and family income have massively supported in identifying DS's SpLDs, getting them diagnosed and providing resources to support his learning and get interventions early. Underfunding of SENs massively disadvantages children without that parental advantage.

Fathers tend to be less involved as a default parent, or even absent altogether. They are less statistically relevant than mothers who invest more attention in their children.

Mothers who move away from their families for education/careers may be more socially isolated and prone to PND. Mothers with limited education but good family networks could be more reliant on outdated family advice on parenting rather than reading up on current practice.

Inequality of sex and education exist and if we don't recognise patterns, we can't prioritise supporting individuals who may benefit from additional support and improve outcomes for the next generation. It's not about shaming individuals.

All of this. And 'anecdata' about people who have bucked the trend doesn't mean it's not valid at a population level. I also find it bizarre that someone would object to something which is aiming to identify at risk mothers and babies for additional support. How is that not a good thing?

Gosh you must have recoiled in horror when they asked if your current partner was the baby’s father 🤣🤣. How dare they, making all kinds of judgments with their questions. What about the question about housing, now that’s pretty judgmental isn’t it and marital status 😱, not to mention your occupation.

All basic questions. Have you ever thought they might use the data to monitor and improve/shape services?

@Ivybutterfly

They did not ask about the dad! His educational levels don’t matter apparently.

That's because he isn't the one who's pregnant.

Ah well! Best we stop all education and health profiling then!

So covid vaccine for the first in the queue

All sorts of initiatives open only to those who can read the detailed academic reports, in English (or language of the country you are curetly living in).

Yep, it's all positive discriminarion and that's a form of discrimination in itself, so stop it!

Alternatively OP, you and your well educated husband, working class roots and all, could think it through and come to understand that the questions are there to help people who are not as lucky, educated, well off, etc etc as you. THEY would have benefitted by having their responses link them to all sorts of additional help and support that you simply don't need.

Your complaint would best be phrased that the person asking the question didn't explain why they were asking rather than the information elicited was a breach of your confidentiality, human rights, dignity or whatever!

It’s not a question of tarring everyone with the same brush or of being intrusive - it has been scientific shown that neonatal outcome has a correlation with maternal education. Here is a study from the BMJ, in case it’s of interest:
jech.bmj.com/content/69/9/826

It is the job of your midwife to ascertain all information that may pertain to the outcome of your pregnancy.

They’ll also check if your husband or partner is violent, and test you for STDs - seems strange to be more offended by education than syphilis....

As to the education/outcome, I think it may well be do with the mothers being in the habit of researching, to an extent, leading to the application of increased research material during pregnancy. Higher education can also often correlate to higher income which plays a factor in nutrition, housing etc.

@Mylittlepony374

It's relevant. Higher educated= less risk of preterm birth, low birth weight and other things I can't remember. They're not asking to shame you, they're asking to ensure they provide best care for you and baby.

Please don't confuse people with actual science - they are professionally offended .. and no one should ask anything.. that way no one knows anything !

Much more preferable to have no statistics in things like birthweight , healthy outcomes..

Also much much better not to be able to plan the spending of resources where it is deemed to be needed .. just blindly chucking any maternity budget up in the air and those who need it can just grab it ..? Don't you think !

They should have explained better why they were asking the question. Then all your horror would have been avoided I think. Why is not having a degree shaming?

Why would anyone feel ashamed and furious if they didn't have a degree?

You make it sound as if she would be forced to admit something that she would rather no-one knew about and I don't think anyone without a degree feels like that. Should they?

You really don't need to feel sorry for anyone or ashamed or angry on non-graduates' behalf because they don't feel any of these things and might think you were being a bit patronising.

As many others have said, there's a reason they ask it because research shows that mother's educational attainment is related to various outcomes for the child. I'm sorry you felt shamed, but that wasn't the intention I'm sure.

The data is used at a population level rather than individual i would think.

I know that cousin marriage is legal. It's also quite taboo in mainstream UK society and I think someone from a minority culture might know that and might feel judged. Maybe you're right though and they're not aware of how it's often considered.

I lived in the UK for 25 years and to be honest, I only really encountered the taboo on here, and I find it a bit strange. The risk of genetic abnormalities is roughly the same as when the mother is over 40, and no one is making that taboo or suggesting it should be illegal. The real issue is with repeated cousin marriages down the generations within certain communities as demonstrated by that big study of cousin marriages in the Bradford Pakistani community where over half of marriages are between cousins but with more knowledge the couples can get screened for recessive genes and mitigate the risk to their children.

Which is a long way round of saying, I'm sure communities who routinely practice cousin marriage are aware of how it's viewed in the population at large, but also view it as normal practice, albeit one with potential medical implications.

I doubt any woman from these communities would feel ashamed of being asked, though.

If the midwife starts treating you differently because she thinks that you don't understand what she is saying or thinks you will be a shit mum then yes you have every right to be offended,

I don’t know anyone, degree-educated or otherwise who was offended by this question, or felt shamed for it.

Or indeed, began to get angry and decide it was because Britain is obsessed with class...

OP, are you sure you’re not maybe projecting your own feelings about your educational status/class onto an innocuous question?

I mean, you’re asked yours and your partner’s occupations too, did that cause similar offence?

@Chathamhouserules

The data is used at a population level rather than individual i would think.

Mostly yes, but some answers do trigger referrals or suggestions to other services.

Tis all grist to the research mill!

They ask the question, amongst many others, for the benefit for the baby which is usually most parents’ priority. It sounds like you and your DH are projecting your own insecurities about your upbringings by finding such questions shameful and rude.