To thinking asking mothers educational level at booking appointment is shaming

[Ivybutterfly]

At my midwife booking appointment I was asked what age I left full time education. I remember the same question last time. They ask whether you have a degree or not. I found it rude and inappropriate. It is also irrelevant. I just sucked it up. My DH on the other hand was raging. He said it was shaming and disgusting. I agree. I think I am going to complain. Why so they ask such a rude question which has no relevance to pregnancy?

@MyGazeboisLeaking they actually ask your job and the father's so they can guess your salary.

As the result of me filling in the questionaire which my booking midwife went through she then turned rude, refused to answer my questions and gave me dangerous medical advice. Leaving my GP, a haemotologist and two obstetricians to pick up the out pieces. Oddly I had no issue changing community midwife when I spoke to the HV sorting out appointments, so I suspect she is known for her attitude.

This is offensive and no "research" is not a satisfactoty explanation. Poor educational outcomes are not of themselves indicators of health. But more people who have been impacted by poor diet, living conditions and physical stress will have had poor educational outcomes. Therefore it's not a question that is useful for tailoring treatment of the individual and the research value is questionable.

Asking about education level may as well be the same as asking your salary, holiday & voting choices

Your holiday and voting choices have no impact on children’s outcomes. Your salary does. As does maternal education.

Such a strange response. I was a bit startled when they asked about domestic violence, but I absolutely get why they do. They’re trying to build up a picture of you very fast (yes, they’d love to spend hours talking through every element of your past. No, they don’t have time.) Asking about your education is a basic element of that. The fact that you and your partner went ballistic about that is (I would guess) quite informative to the midwife.

@mynameiscalypso

If a mum-to-be answered 'GCSEs', what sort of support would she be offered?

I am a feminist and I am appalled that someone wants to make a complaint about a question which is used to help other women (and their babies).

Same here.

OP you didn't even try to take on board the stats and research people took the time to share, or reflect on how many people found your reaction to the question to be patronising and condescending to people who don't have degrees.

You've reacted in anger, doubled down when people disagreed with you (sharing data and stats, not simply being 'nasty' - you just ignored that research) and then wrote a flouncy message calling MN a cesspool...

You made it impossible for this to be what could actually have been a useful and informative discussion by taking anyone's alternative opinion as nasty criticism and not even acknowledging the useful links they shared. Then changing your grievance from a question being shaming to a question being intrusive, when people challenged you on why someone should feel shame about not having a degree.

Odd.

[quote MyGazeboisLeaking]@mynameiscalypso

If a mum-to-be answered 'GCSEs', what sort of support would she be offered?[/quote]
This has been explained already - it is one factor that may be considered (MAY) when deciding if a pregnancy should be referred to a specialist team. Mine was, for a different reason. That meant I had a dedicated midwife who I saw in person every two weeks and who arranged everything for me and I had post-birth care from the midwives for 4 weeks including numerous home visits. This clearly won't be offered just based on educational level but it's one tiny tiny factor that may go into the assessment. It's unlikely to matter much but it might.

My partner has a PHD , I work in a field where most of my piers have postgraduate qualifications though I started my degree latter in life and didn't finish dispute holding a senior position. Usually when I go to the doctors its straight from work and I'm fomally dressed. However, I took my son to the doctors and as I'm WFH I was dressed casually (ok scruffy!)and I was treated poorly. The doctor spoke down to me and when I asked questions regarding treatment options he was condescending. It's hard not to take offense.

No, it's not shaming. As previous posters have said, there are well documented links between mother's educational level and outcomes for the child. I can't quote you any research just now but it came up multiple times when I studied for my Speech and Language Therapy qualification.

OP you didn't even try to take on board the stats and research people took the time to share, or reflect on how many people found your reaction to the question to be patronising and condescending to people who don't have degrees.

You've reacted in anger, doubled down when people disagreed with you (sharing data and stats, not simply being 'nasty' - you just ignored that research) and then wrote a flouncy message calling MN a cesspool...

You made it impossible for this to be what could actually have been a useful and informative discussion by taking anyone's alternative opinion as nasty criticism and not even acknowledging the useful links they shared. Then changing your grievance from a question being shaming to a question being intrusive, when people challenged you on why someone should feel shame about not having a degree.

Odd

Agreed.

When people didn't agree the OP tried to pretend it's about class and they're sticking up for working class women, then it's apparently feminist to get offended about data gathering to improve outcomes for women and children. Bizarre.

OP: "I worry for some poor working class mother who goes there alone and is made to feel worthless"

I'm sure she'll thank you so much for your patronage... 😂

The irony is strong in this one!

no, @mynameiscalypso , it won't.

Your special care is irrelevant to this discussion, by the way, unless it's due to your sub-par education.

Your husband may be book smart but he’s not engaged his brain here and he’s got you up to high doh
It’s not shaming. If they’d said oh no degree?Get you.. that’d be shaming
I expect Midwives ask the educational attainment of mother’s to gather data that tracks health inequalities. Education attainment is usually a socioeconomic marker
However it should have been explained why they ask

@justchecking1

It's not being asked for "research purposes", the research has already been done!

Asking the questions is the result of years of research which has identified some groups, such as those with lower educational attainment, as having poorer outcomes.

It's designed to help those who may need it

^^ Wot she said

[quote Ivybutterfly]@arethereanyleftatall education doesn’t necessarily make you clever. A degree educates you in a certain subject. The world is full of educated idiots.[/quote]
You're missing the point spectacularly.

The data over centuries shows that people with low education generally come from lower socioeconomic backgrounds and babies born from these backgrounds generally have worse outcomes.

It's not about you. It's not about idiots being educated. It's about statistics and generalisations because that's all we have as a first pass means of filtering.

@MyGazeboisLeaking

no, *@mynameiscalypso* , it won't.

Your special care is irrelevant to this discussion, by the way, unless it's due to your sub-par education.

You asked what specialist care they would receive - I told you what the caseloading team in my trust do. They pick up the higher risk/vulnerable pregnancies. That may include pregnancies of women with a lower level of educational achievement (plus other risk factors). Nobody is going to be referred to them for only having GCSEs!

It’s for purposes of data as many pp have said, to help future mothers, and based on data of previous mothers. The same way they ask your age, heritage etc. It is all relevant, why on earth else do you think they’d ask? It’s not to shame anyone and why would anyone be shamed by it? It’s to help everyone ffs.

This is offensive and no "research" is not a satisfactory explanation. Poor educational outcomes are not of themselves indicators of health. But more people who have been impacted by poor diet, living conditions and physical stress will have had poor educational outcomes. Therefore it's not a question that is useful for tailoring treatment of the individual and the research value is questionable.

That’s exactly why it is asked alongside questions regarding diet, bmi, living conditions, physical stress etc. The research value isn’t questionable and it IS useful for tailoring the treatment of the individual, as it isn’t a question asked in isolation.
Everything is a puzzle piece.

@Hailingfrequenciesopen

I am really interested in how education level effects birth weight?

I am not about to go trawling the internet for you, but I imagine that many peer-reviewed research projects have identified the correlation between the two factors.

If you really are 'interested', I'm sure you could find the research results yourself.

I can guess, and it's purely a guess... that the research has revealed a correlation between lower education attainment and underweight babies because, again I guess... lower levels of maternal health at the time of conception; lower levels of engagement with antenatal services; higher levels of deprivation/poverty; higher levels of substance abuse etc etc.

This doesn't mean that every GCSE dropout will birth an underweight baby; but I guess that statistically, they are more likely to, thus might need more support.

I don't find that patronising.

It is data that is collected for public health monitoring and planning.
Historic studies have found that the lower education level of the mother can impact things such as breastfeeding rates and they continue to monitor them so that they can identify trends and design interventions as and when needed. They also record lots of other data throughout your life for similar reasons.

They are not judging you as an individual, they are trying to help those who need it the most and need the information to identify those more at risk.

This is how new health interventions are identified, researched and implemented.

FFS OP, you and your DH are sickening snobs.

The question is asked to identify and help the most vulnerable women and families. It wasn't asked in my area and a young woman (girl, actually) slipped through the net and was given leaflets about how to feed her baby, amongst other things.

She couldn't read and did not know how to safely prepare milk for her baby, leading to problems for the child. She didn't know who or where to get help for anything. She couldn't seek help for the DV she experienced, which lead to her murder.

She was totally failed by leaflets WHICH SHE COULD NOT READ.

When I came to my booking in appointment, possibly in the same room she sat in years earlier, I was asked how many years education I had completed. Not whether I had a degree.

You and your uber educated husband should be thanking the universe for your privilege and thinking about how people less privileged get help.

I feel angry that you can't appreciate this.

No, it's not shaming. As previous posters have said, there are well documented links between mother's educational level and outcomes for the child. I can't quote you any research just now but it came up multiple times when I studied for my Speech and Language Therapy qualification
I haven’t got time to read 9 pages of replies but I agree with this. Mothers with few or no qualifications or more likely to need extra support than those who are more qualified in any subject. Whatever you think, the system wants the best outcome for the child. If the best way to do that is to put targeted support In for those who need it, that’s fine with me.

I remember being asked if I used or had ever used intrevenous drugs. It was just one question on the list. I wasn,t ashamed to answer it or insulted and the MW just made it very clear it was just one question on a list. Why get offended about the education question if you don,t want to answer just say prefer not to answer.

@Ivybutterfly

At my midwife booking appointment I was asked what age I left full time education. I remember the same question last time. They ask whether you have a degree or not. I found it rude and inappropriate. It is also irrelevant. I just sucked it up. My DH on the other hand was raging. He said it was shaming and disgusting. I agree. I think I am going to complain. Why so they ask such a rude question which has no relevance to pregnancy?

I don't recall ever being asked this

Also there’s the fact that those with higher education are more likely to have the tools for research. To be able to filter the bad and good from the general internet, to understand what pubmed is and how to use it, to be able to engage with professionals and ask the right questions and find the right support. Also to have the knowledge and experience to advocate for themselves.

As part of the whole picture.

As the association between a mother’s educational status and her likelihood of early initiation of breastfeeding increases, long-term approaches to prioritising education for women and girls should be explored. In the short term, uneducated mothers should be targeted with breastfeeding promotion strategies such as counselling and peer education.
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4610048/

Just one very quick google and there is plenty of information like this