To thinking asking mothers educational level at booking appointment is shaming

[Ivybutterfly]

At my midwife booking appointment I was asked what age I left full time education. I remember the same question last time. They ask whether you have a degree or not. I found it rude and inappropriate. It is also irrelevant. I just sucked it up. My DH on the other hand was raging. He said it was shaming and disgusting. I agree. I think I am going to complain. Why so they ask such a rude question which has no relevance to pregnancy?

Ivy

What do you think of the research I mentioned?

Are you saying nothing has been done about maternal care in the last 50 years? Or about educational gaps? Or poverty?!

OP I think if you owned up to your ignorance of the reasons those questions were asked, and said 'Oh yeah I understand now and agree it's important to collect data to target interventions at those most in need' you'd find MN much friendlier.

If you want huns and yeah babes though try Netmums

*NameChanger3002

*@Ivybutterfly it's so they know how to discuss things with you at a level appropriate for your understanding.

See this is offensive. How anyone thinks this is ok is beyond me.

Can you explain how its offensive? Me and my dsis have very different intelligence and education levels and when things are explained she has to have them re explained multiple times. When pregnant she often sent me her maternity notes or called to ask me what her midwife meant. When i was pregnant i didnt need anyone to re explain or change how something was explained. Thats not saying dsis is thick or a failure as a mother just she doesnt have the same education so its needed modifying for her.

All the social and medical policy that exists related to deprivation is based on research. Which involves collecting data.

Please stop saying ‘no one is helping mothers’. There is a lot of social policy around maternal care, some of it dodgy, some of it less useful, but it’s there. It’s why maternal mortality, infant mortality etc have fallen.

You are the worst kind of liberal op. Offended on others behalf. Raging in fact. The correlation is proven hence they ask the question. They shouldn't need to ask the question because care should be better that issues are picked up that way. But it's not.

Ivy- you have pointed out your own background as being working class. I appreciate that this has obviously hit a nerve but don’t take it personally.
There are multiple agencies trying to tackle inequality- but we need information to be able to know who to at least start to support. Low educational attainment gives so much information for health and community practitioners to start from. Why has someone got low attainment/ what is going on/ is there a learning difficulty/ history of trauma/ financial issues.

I'm pregnant with my 4th child I've never been asked if I have a degree or when I left education ... I don't understand why it would be relevant ? but I also don't understand why you would feel it is shaming ? X

And if you are a feminist you would know that women’s education is one of the biggest things that we focus on in developmental programmes in the Global South. When we educate mothers (say in India, or Vietnam or Ghana) we see wide spread societal change.

There is research. There is evidence. There is a reason why we ask. There is a reason in developed countries we focus on the education of girls.

Nah.

What’s nasty, is people dying in really rather horrible ways because we didn’t intervene because we didn’t have the Information we needed.

And the Grief of the families of those who die

I’ll save my energies for trying to prevent that.

Random tangent but did anyone ever watch a show called "sex, chips and rock n roll?"

Set in the 60s One of the twins gets pregnant in it and when the baby is born she is filling out the birth certificate and it asks for fathers occupation but not the mothers and she demands they put down her occupation as well even though it wasnt the done thing. That was seen as progressive.

This thread reminded me of the opposite of that.

*ThiS Thread is making me quite cross

I do a lot of work with statistics in my job, trying to get better outcomes for people in certain situations. ,My colleagues are always on the hunt for any commonality in a poor outcome, so we can target intervention to those who need it most. And yes, it is often poorer people, those less well educated, or a minority group.
We do this because it’s our job and we fucking care. A lot.

There’s something really irritating about an educated person moaning about hurt feelings because f a monitoring question. YOURE alright jack, fuck those other mothers. Let’s not bother to collect data to see if any groups DO have poorer outcomes.*

Excellent post @electronVolt - it seems like you've upset the OP with your facts, passion for helping others and clear logic. Thanks for what you do.

@FelicityPike

If you have a Phd, I’m surprised you don’t know the difference between anecdote and data.

@CausingChaos2 because different areas deal with maternal health factors slightly differently.

So if you live in an area with a low number of smokers of child bearing age it doesn't make sense to CO2 test every pregnant woman. So in my case my word was good enough.

I had other issues with my booking midwife so I can understand why the OP is upset about being asked about her level of education as sometimes it isn't what is being asked but the way it is asked.

YABVU

It is data gathering and risk analysis.

Plenty of people with highly academic backgrounds might be dicks I agree however statistically they are not the ones who need more support in their pregnancy and subsequent family lives.

Why do people love to be outraged by empirically backed facts?

I completely agree with you OP. They could send such a questionnaire at a later date.

The problem with sending questionnaires in the post is that the people who reply tend to not be representative of the population as a whole, they tend to be the more well-off, better educated etc.

Are you also offended by being weighed in the doctors surgery? Correlation of certain sociological circumstances to health outcomes are often researched. Although thankfully, in this circumstance, nobody has asked you to complete a degree in order to lower your chances of premature labour. 🤗

@Purpler5 did FelicityPike say what her PhD was in? I know people with PhDs in very interesting subject but they don't deal with data how those from STEM areas deal with it.

@Ivybutterfly

I worry for some poor working class mother who goes there alone and is made to feel worthless. I also find it condescending. People just assume that if you don’t have a degree you won’t breastfeed and will smoke and drink? That is shameful classism.

They don’t assume it. The evidence simply suggests the chances are higher. It’s relevant. Not sure why you are on your high horse about it. The reason has been explained. They are practicing evidence based medicine. Would you rather they didn’t bother?!!

OP, you are not wrong. If you left school at 16 (or before), the question feels judgemental.

the questions to be asked / information to be gather at a booking in appointment should be directly relevant to your situation, eg: weight, alcohol & drug consumption, suitably housed, supportive partnership, etc.

Asking about education level may as well be the same as asking your salary, holiday & voting choices.

If data is desirable for statistical purposes, let let it be by a voluntary questionnaire.

I completely agree with you OP. They could send such a questionnaire at a later date.

Most people don't fill in questionaires at a later date. Anyone who has done some research can tell you this.

It is about data collection for the NHS and the midwife should make that clear. If they don’t, they are not doing their job correctly. You are under no obligation to answer. It should even say in your notes that that quiets in (plus others to do with whether you own your house etc) are purely for NHS data. Your answer does not affect your care. Apologies if I’m repeating people, I can’t be bothered to read through 16 pages of replies.

I would be more offended being asked if i took recreational drugs than asked for my education level. (and i wasnt offended by the drugs question. I did laugh at the question of me and dp being related though i understand why it was asked.)

@MyGazeboisLeaking

OP, you are not wrong. If you left school at 16 (or before), the question feels judgemental.

the questions to be asked / information to be gather at a booking in appointment should be directly relevant to your situation, eg: weight, alcohol & drug consumption, suitably housed, supportive partnership, etc.

Asking about education level may as well be the same as asking your salary, holiday & voting choices.

If data is desirable for statistical purposes, let let it be by a voluntary questionnaire.

But it's not just for statistical purposes, it's to help identify women and babies who might (MIGHT) need additional support. Same way they ask about lots of other things.

Dread to think how your DP is going to react when your midwife starts asking you if your in a DV relationship when you attend appointments alone. Well if you tell him.

It's odd that you felt shamed by being asked for your education level, when you have a degree. Why would you be ashamed of having a degree? Is it in David Beckham studies?