To thinking asking mothers educational level at booking appointment is shaming

[Ivybutterfly]

At my midwife booking appointment I was asked what age I left full time education. I remember the same question last time. They ask whether you have a degree or not. I found it rude and inappropriate. It is also irrelevant. I just sucked it up. My DH on the other hand was raging. He said it was shaming and disgusting. I agree. I think I am going to complain. Why so they ask such a rude question which has no relevance to pregnancy?

Why is it shaming - it strikes me that your husbands perspective could be that he sees having fewer academic qualifications as something to be ashamed of.
I have a degree. My sister doesn’t. Another sister has a degree however doesn’t use it and works as a carer. None of us is more 'intelligent' than the other.
The NHS doesn’t often ask for useless information. There’s usually a reason and it isn’t for shaming. Rather than making random inflammatory statements you time would be better used asking why this information is requested and what it is used for.

[quote Ivybutterfly]@arethereanyleftatall education doesn’t necessarily make you clever. A degree educates you in a certain subject. The world is full of educated idiots.[/quote]
Evidently.

[quote Ivybutterfly]@Madwife123 my complaint is that the question is rude and intrusive. The other questions could be rude out of context but have medical relevance. Ask me of I drink or take drugs or if I am related to my husband. I could not care less. Actual medical questions are fine.
The NHS has also had breaches in its data confidentiality. It’s another issue but worth noting. They also sell data.[/quote]
Even after people have explained the existing studies, the fact that the statistics are used to signpost people in need to relevant services and spot trends and patterns that can help improve children's lives - you still don't think it's a relevant enough question to ask during an appointment?

You have doubled down on the fact it's intrusive and personal when previously you took issue hugely to the idea that it was shaming to ask someone their level of education.

Your wording 'poor working class mother' clearly displays your assumption that someone would be ashamed of not having a degree - which is condescending in itself.

Speaking about a demographic as people to be pitied - 'poor working class mother' for example - perpetuates negative assumptions rather than challenging them.

Jesus. If you're that offended just don't answer that question.

As others have said, plenty research shows direct correlations with mothers educational attainment and many factors of baby's health both pre and post birth. They are asking so they can treat/help you/baby as best they can with the info you provide.

Your husband is a div to get so worked up about it. It certainly isn't 'shaming' as you put it - grow up.

@CausingChaos2 CO2 testing isn’t for women to “prove” if they smoke or not. Research shows that high CO2 is linked to lower birthweight babies. We also know that high CO2 can be due to smoking, passive smoking, living or working in a city, work related exposure, faulty home equipment etc. There are many many reasons.

It’s a screening tool, nothing more. For those who do smoke the CO2 level determines what extra care they need. A social smoker with a low CO2 level doesn’t need the same as a heavy smoker with a high CO2 level. It’s the CO2 that’s the defining factor.

@Ivybutterfly it's so they know how to discuss things with you at a level appropriate for your understanding.

@ChaBishkoot Wow. You even mentioned Brexit. The abuse of here is unreal. Actually my comment was that they were being condescending, much like your comment. I am all for data and research. I use it in my work. Consensual data from people happy to provide. I have nothing against academics, or research lead people, maybe just be less condescending. Other people are not as dumb as you think they are. Much medical science is based on it. People were saying I did not care, my point was that society is unfair and none of the people sneering at me can say that much is being done about it.
Also, I am not taking the question personally. I am a feminist and I am annoyed that ANY woman is being asked it. That is different.

How is asking about maternal educational level more rude or intrusive than asking about drink, drug use, domestic violence, reproductive coersion, sexual history (on 2nd+ child, it's not unusual to ask if all the kids have the same father), or any of the other things midwives ask about? That seems fairly mild in comparison.

To me, the most emotionally intrusive question was being asked about if my mother would be coming to give support. It had nothing to do with the question though, they were just asking what support I had, much like when they ask about friends with kids. I'm just sensitive about that topic and really wish the professional hadn't gone on a gushing monologue about how great having a mother's support with a new baby was. Familial support does improve outcomes, it's just not something I have. Emotionally painful at time, but they're not being rude to ask.

@Moutarde calm down.

ThiS Thread is making me quite cross

I do a lot of work with statistics in my job, trying to get better outcomes for people in certain situations. ,My colleagues are always on the hunt for any commonality in a poor outcome, so we can target intervention to those who need it most. And yes, it is often poorer people, those less well educated, or a minority group.

We do this because it’s our job and we fucking care. A lot.

There’s something really irritating about an educated person moaning about hurt feelings because f a monitoring question. YOURE alright jack, fuck those other mothers. Let’s not bother to collect data to see if any groups DO have poorer outcomes.

[quote NameChanger3002]@Ivybutterfly it's so they know how to discuss things with you at a level appropriate for your understanding.[/quote]
See this is offensive. How anyone thinks this is ok is beyond me.

Mother's education is closely linked with child's out come. It's not just England that asks this kind of question. So I don't think it's shaming, they are just collecting data. You don't need to answer if you don't want to.

It is not CO2 (carbon dioxide) that is tested for, it is CO (carbon monoxide). Not so much relevant for smoking, but you can have an issue with your house that you won't even know about apart from frequent headaches, but it does impact the development of the fetus massively.

@Tenyearsgone as I've already said, I had a specialist midwife. I have a degree, a masters and a professional qualification. It's not a matter that degree = no specialist support and no degree = specialist support. It's one factor in the risk assessment that the midwife has to carry out. Other things that flag up needing specialist support (at least in my trust) include not having any English, being in an abusive relationship, mental health problems, experience of trauma etc. It is just one tiny factor that will probably have little to no impact on the care received (frankly because specialist teams are incredibly overstretched and will only take on the referrals they feel need it). Plus there's no reason why any woman - degree or not - can't, for example, get a referral to perinatal mental health.

OP it is for statistics, but if you were and still are concerned about how your data is used you can withdraw consent.

I doubt that any healthcare professionals you meet during your pregnancy will even have access to this data.

It is optional. You can choose not to answer it. It is entirely consensual. No one forced you to answer it. Your care is NOT based on this answer.

I am leaving this abusive and disgusting thread. Just wow. It is not shameful to not have a degree. I never said it was. I have mentioned numerous times that I am working class. My entire family are working class. The ‘poor’ comment was clearly badly put but was about empathy about being made to ask a rude question not financial nor condescending. They could at least say WHY or say it will be anonymous.
It is interesting that Mumsnet is supposed to be a safe space for women and mothers. There is zero respect here. I will happily debate with people but people got personal and nasty very quickly. What a cesspool. How hard it is to have a respectable and intelligent debate? Very disappointing.

@Tenyearsgone - See this is offensive. How anyone thinks this is ok is beyond me.

Oh come on. I assume it was tongue in cheek. I actually laughed at that post as it was so obviously ridiculous.

Plenty of things are being done about society being unfair. It’s called social policy. That’s why we have seen a reduction in poverty say since the 1940s. It’s why we have a welfare state. Safety nets.
Free school meals.

I mean if you KNOW that

• research is based on data
• this data collection is consensual
• and that social policy exists.

Then why are you asking the same questions again and again?!

@electronVolt how nasty. You should be ashamed of yourself.

[quote Ivybutterfly]@Madwife123 my complaint is that the question is rude and intrusive. The other questions could be rude out of context but have medical relevance. Ask me of I drink or take drugs or if I am related to my husband. I could not care less. Actual medical questions are fine.
The NHS has also had breaches in its data confidentiality. It’s another issue but worth noting. They also sell data.[/quote]
Except its not rude and intrusive.

Its trying to fine out health incomes based on economic disadvantages.

Being rude and intrusive would be asking you what your household income is.

In case you have been asleep for the last 6 months we know that higher levels of deprivation equate to higher levels of catching covid and in turn dying of it. The same is true for almost all health conditions.

[quote Ivybutterfly]@ChaBishkoot Wow. You even mentioned Brexit. The abuse of here is unreal. Actually my comment was that they were being condescending, much like your comment. I am all for data and research. I use it in my work. Consensual data from people happy to provide. I have nothing against academics, or research lead people, maybe just be less condescending. Other people are not as dumb as you think they are. Much medical science is based on it. People were saying I did not care, my point was that society is unfair and none of the people sneering at me can say that much is being done about it.
Also, I am not taking the question personally. I am a feminist and I am annoyed that ANY woman is being asked it. That is different.[/quote]
I am a feminist and I am appalled that someone wants to make a complaint about a question which is used to help other women (and their babies).

Mother’s educational level is the best predictor we currently have of socio-economic deprivation. And the reason it’s the mother is due to the recognition of the fact that women are even more disadvantaged by socio-economic factor than males. Addressing that is a feminist issue! There is a massive divide in this country in terms of maternal-foetal outcomes (and health in general, in fact) between those at the top of the social scale and those below - which affects women more than men. This question is vitally important to help to try to address that gap and create better outcomes for all.

You asked for evidence. People posted links.
You asked why it was collected, plenty of people answered it politely.

I haven’t heard your reason beyond ‘DH was offended’ and ‘some people MIGHT be offended’ to be asked an entirely optional question about their social circumstances.
You can flounce but I think it’s a pretty poor reflection of your ability to analyse basic social science research than any actual ‘abuse’.

They ask to improve outcomes.
My word ot must be exhausting going through life being offended by everything (mainly your DH, I did read the Op!).