To thinking asking mothers educational level at booking appointment is shaming

[Ivybutterfly]

At my midwife booking appointment I was asked what age I left full time education. I remember the same question last time. They ask whether you have a degree or not. I found it rude and inappropriate. It is also irrelevant. I just sucked it up. My DH on the other hand was raging. He said it was shaming and disgusting. I agree. I think I am going to complain. Why so they ask such a rude question which has no relevance to pregnancy?

@Bidenfairy

I agree, by this logic anyone could ask it for ‘research’ purposes.

Most research projects in medical settings are vetted by an advisory board.

Haven’t read the full thread but YANBU. If they’re asking for statistics purposes they should say that. If it’s related to you as an individual then you should be treated as one.

Women also aren’t trusted to tell the truth about their smoking status during pregnancy, hence the CO2 test.

It's not about marking mothers/ infants as failures, it's about targeting support to where it is likely to make most difference.

Some years back I did a course through the children's centre. My background made me low priority, but there were spaces so I got a place. At 32, I was positively geriatric I found the course interesting and affirmative, but the cohort who were predominantly young, with unplanned pregnancies, left education at 16, low incomes. It doesn't mean they weren't good mums at all, and clearly they were interested in finding out more to give their baby the best start within their means, a good sign of being a good mum. One was delighted to continue BFing far longer than she'd ever expected because of the support and normalisation from the services at the childrens' centre.

Nobody was a faliure, but it is right that they had priority for support over the mother with multiple advantages.

If it's not rude and just for 'statistics' why don't they ask about the father's educational level?

@CausingChaos2

Haven’t read the full thread but YANBU. If they’re asking for statistics purposes they should say that. If it’s related to you as an individual then you should be treated as one.

Women also aren’t trusted to tell the truth about their smoking status during pregnancy, hence the CO2 test.

But its for both. You could apply the same argument. 'Aibu to be annoyed that the midwife asked to weigh me? That could be offensive to a poor, overweight person' There are risks associated with pregnancy and obesity hence the question. Similarly DV Similarly FGM Mental illness Housing You cannot explain the rationale for every single question or you would be there all day!

@JuliaJohnston

The paediatrician basically implied that because my DH had a basic education and few GCSEs it was a reason for DD to be born early and be slightly developmentally delayed. I'm pretty sure they implied no such thing

Some medical professionals are rude. They are people, and some people who deal with other people in their jobs are simply rude.

1 it helps them collect data
2 it helps them to ensure you and the baby get the best care.

Like it or not there is evidence that the poorer level of education a person has, the more likely there is to be negative impacts during the pregnancy and baby once born.

It helps them identify people who may need more support.

There's no reason to be defensive or insulted. That's your own personal issue.

@willloman presumably because maternal education level affects birth outcomes regardless of paternal education level? Have you checked the stats?

@CausingChaos2

Haven’t read the full thread but YANBU. If they’re asking for statistics purposes they should say that. If it’s related to you as an individual then you should be treated as one.

Women also aren’t trusted to tell the truth about their smoking status during pregnancy, hence the CO2 test.

I never had a CO2 test.

Probably if you come in smelling of smoke then you may be asked to have one or if you live in a particular area.

(Mind you I had a GP accuse me of taking drugs before on my medical notes.)

Joined if it’s for statistics then women should be properly informed and consent to being participants in this research. Do the ethical requirements of research to gain consent not apply to the NHS? Apparently not.

Women also aren’t trusted to tell the truth about their smoking status during pregnancy, hence the CO2 test.

Its not because women cant be trusted to tell the truth. I had it and i dont smoke. As my midwife informed me dp was an ex smoker and now vapes and we could have a faulty co2 monitor in our home (i dont think we even have one at all).

@Ivybutterfly

They did not ask about the dad! His educational levels don’t matter apparently.

I remember reading something about mothers' educational attainments having a much bigger impact on children's educational attainments than fathers'.

If it's not rude and just for 'statistics' why don't they ask about the father's educational level?

Because it is maternal education that impacts on outcomes for children, not paternal.

Haven’t read all the posts. Educational attainment of the mother is a huge indicator of outcomes for children. It also correlated with things such as breast feeding and educational attainment in children.
When the midwife asks about it is not only to gather evidence that programmes such as Surestart use to show work is having an impact, but also to identify families who may need additional help.

It also is linked to poverty.

@Madwife123 my complaint is that the question is rude and intrusive. The other questions could be rude out of context but have medical relevance. Ask me of I drink or take drugs or if I am related to my husband. I could not care less. Actual medical questions are fine.
The NHS has also had breaches in its data confidentiality. It’s another issue but worth noting. They also sell data.

I have also read journals that linked maternal intelligence and education on their childrens outcomes that stated fathers intelligence and education level had no impact so thats probably why. I dont see whats so bad about saying yeah i am educated to gcse/alevel/degree/masters/doctorate level. Its not like they will see you habe 3 gcses and sent a social worker after you.

They asked me if I was homeless, if I'd taken illicit drugs during pregnancy, and if a social worker was involved with my family. Those are all things that some people might be ashamed about, but that are important for the hospital to know.

'Educational level' isn't just whether you have a degree or not. It can also pick up on a mother who left school at 13 due to undiagnosed learning difficulties, like my friend's mum did. People in that situation are generally going to need more support, although obviously there will be exceptions.

It’s not shaming, and you’re being ridiculous.

They rightly ask a lot of questions to find out about you and your life. They don’t draw conclusions based on when you left school, but they’re building up a big picture as - depending on the answers you give - that might put you and your baby in higher risk categories.

It’s important to be truthful, and for Mother’s and babies to be kept safe and appropriately looked after.

Thank you @Mammylamb I thought so to but was too scared to say! Lol.

I assume it is for good purposes, not to shame women. A good friend is an ob/gyn registrar and she does see women who are barely literate, often with a complicated background. Many of them aren't sure about their anatomy at all. Probably it is better that the question is asked universally and some highly educated western women are feeling ashamed for a second, than a pregnant 17 year old refugee has zero idea where to go for her blood tests and scans, and why she needs them.
Having said that, I did find the maternity care in the UK extremely patronising and rule-based, was quite surprised by it.

@Ivybutterfly Lots of the questions are intrusive. They are all relevant or they wouldn’t be asked. Many people have explained why this question is relevant to pregnancy.

If we are discussing data breaches I’d be more concerned about my medical history being breached than how old I was when I left school.

I understand being angry that you were “forced” to answer a question. I don’t understand why you are so angry at that particular question considering the much more intimate and personal questions that are asked.

Ivybutterfly

What do you think about the research conclusions re the language gap I posted earlier?

Red It’s standard for all women, I don’t know why you weren’t included.

What do you mean by ‘if you live in a particular area.’ ?

The point is women are asked whether they smoke, and then are expected to prove it. Why isn’t their word good enough?