To thinking asking mothers educational level at booking appointment is shaming

[Ivybutterfly]

At my midwife booking appointment I was asked what age I left full time education. I remember the same question last time. They ask whether you have a degree or not. I found it rude and inappropriate. It is also irrelevant. I just sucked it up. My DH on the other hand was raging. He said it was shaming and disgusting. I agree. I think I am going to complain. Why so they ask such a rude question which has no relevance to pregnancy?

Lots of the questions they ask are potentially shaming - smoking, drinking, whether living with partner, whether pregnancy was the result of IVF, whether you use drugs, whether you have any STDs.... I don't see how education level is worse than the others. I don't see the direct relevance of the question either to be honest. Any correlation with outcomes is surely going to be too unreliable at an individual level to target interventions.... Unlike drug use which is an obvious risk in most cases.

But we (the country) need the data to make evidence based policy, and how can we get the data without asking everyone?

OP I think you’re getting a hard time on here. I don’t recall being asked this question, but If I was I would have lied, as I wouldn’t have wanted the midwife to be patronising or look down on me.

Its believable that I have a degree as most people performing the same role have degrees, it’s fairly rare not to have one (although I do have a number of professional qualifications directly related to my job) and we lived in a middle class area with a middle income.

I did notice that in hospital having my son, I was treated with more respect than the younger mums at neighbouring beds: the HCPs treated me as an intelligent equal rather than a nuisance.

@tectonicplates On a population level that is what the research shows yes. On an individual level it may be very different. I left school at 16 to be a single mother to my daughter. I later retook my GCSE’s, went to college, went to uni and got a degree. Did my second child get a different upbringing from my first? Absolutely! Was it purely related to academic achievement? Probably not as there are so many variables but it was a huge factor.

Surely if the information is being collected for research, the service user should be informed? And it should be optional to answer.

Does the NHS not have any ethical guidelines for collecting population level statistics for their research

[quote tectonicplates]@Madwife123 So how does this work for people who get a degree half way through life? I did a degree in my 30s.

What happens, let's say, if someone has a baby, then gets a degree, then has another baby? Does the second baby have a better health outcome than the first?[/quote]
Yes

These questions feed in to a maternity dataset, which is one of the sources of statistical data used by lots of bodies.

It’s how we learn about giving the best available outcomes and patient pathways in the future, not specifically for you.

@ColdTattyWaitingForSummer

I actually do think it could be condescending.. I left school at 15. I think I’d worry that if I shared that then a HCP might look down on me or not treat me with the same level as respect as a degree educated mother, and that that they would make other presumptions about me. I’m not saying all would, but it was certainly something I noticed as a young mum.

Yes I do think that could be a problem, so I would refuse to answer the question for that reason.

Yes women should be looked at as individuals. It should also be that research continues to make lives better at a population level overall which needs a constant flow of data. BOTH are doable. A midwife can and very often they do establish a personal, personable rapport with each individual woman, and their meetings might simultaneously also provide useful data in community settings. One does not negate the other.

When I had a baby 9 months ago I had been repeatedly asked about my sugar levels and had extra tests because there is undeniable evidence about south Asian women and gestational diabetes. This does NOT mean I was destined to get it myself. It did not offend or shame me. It did not make me just a data point. It did not prevent my midwife and myself establishing a bond. The evidence that guided them to offer all south Asian mothers that extra screening was population level evidence and policy that i personally had no reason to be feeling singled out by.

I would want to know a lot more about what they would do with the answer. Obviously, they use the data, but is it anonymised? or is it stored in your medical notes and is it or can it be used in conjunction with other data about you and your household/kids in the future.

I don't think it is shaming not to have a degree. I do have one, but know bugger all about biology.

@aintnothinbutagstring

Surely if the information is being collected for research, the service user should be informed? And it should be optional to answer.

Does the NHS not have any ethical guidelines for collecting population level statistics for their research

Not for audit purposes no.

I’ve had several booking appointments and forgot to feel offended at any of them.

I’m not an IV drug user, don’t smoke, the father isn’t related, he’s not abusive, but I’m glad they ask these things and the booking appointment is an important opportunity to sign post to help if the mother needs it.

This joins the other outraged posts we’ve had in the past including one where a woman claimed she was being shamed by being weighed and another where someone was livid at being considered legally single as she wasn’t married to the father.

And my granny drank 25 pints of Guinness and smoked 60 fans a day, she lived to 125! So smoking and drinking cant be bad for anyone

Jeez

@aintnothinbutagstring

Surely if the information is being collected for research, the service user should be informed? And it should be optional to answer.

Does the NHS not have any ethical guidelines for collecting population level statistics for their research

This is usually contained in the information leaflets provided prior to booking. At least it is at my trust and these same leaflets also explain that women are free to decline to answer any questions they wish but that some may lead to them not receiving effective care as a result. E.g if you said you didn’t smoke but you did this could lead to you missing growth scans which may miss a baby that is small for dates. I assume other trusts do something similar, or they at least should.

@DifficultPifcultLemonDifficult

They collect information for statistical data.

You don't have to answer, but it isn't rude or 'shaming' for them to ask.

This. It's not personal.

There is a far stronger corrlation between a mothers educational level and her attitude to education and the childs success at school, than the fathers. His level is far less influential.

Or as the saying goes:
If you educate a man you educate a man, if you educate a woman you educate a family.

Who said action isn’t taken? It’s called social policy. But you can’t undertake social policy without DATA or EVIDENCE. We can’t just assume. Hence we collect this data.

Also your sneering attitude towards the despairing academics makes me wonder if you are one those who think ‘experts’, you know the people who spent many years writing about their subject, researching it etc are to be eye rolled at. (As was done during Brexit...).

I mean good for you that you came from a working class background and got a degree. But our national level statistics suggest that this is not always the case. Hence the major efforts Universities make to do outreach programmes to schools in deprived areas.

That’s based on DATA and RESEARCH. Which involves asking questions about the educational attainment of previous generations.

@Hayeahnobut

There is a correlation between the mother's educational attainment and baby's birth weight. Before complaining, please do some research.

Your husband's reaction is over the top, and more indicative of his own views? Is he ashamed of your (or his) level of educational attainment?

Exactly.

@justchecking1

There's a fair few studies that show poorer maternal and child outcomes for women with fewer years of education.

It's part of their early screening programme to identify women who are at higher risk of less favourable outcomes.

Like others have said, you don't have to answer, but it's definitely not a shaming tactic!

This

I completely agree with you OP. They could send such a questionnaire at a later date.

I was never asked this at all last year. Surely its just statistic collection.

It’s not shaming. Factors like education levels DO affect birth outcomes and the reasons for this need to be studied in order to try and balance out these health inequalities.

@flaviaritt

Sometimes you have to do things you don't want for the collective.

But not this. You don’t have to answer anything that makes you feel uncomfortable. Healthcare IS about the individual.

Is being "uncomfortable " really so bad? When the data can be used for the collective betterment?

Don't you think you benefit from research that involved sacrifices from other people?

"Britain is obsessed with class. It holds people back. Asking a intrusive question about someone’s class "

They didn't ask about your social class.

Aggregated, anonymised data on overall maternal educational level is important in tackling the disadvantages that children face. Those disadvantages a) begin in utero and b) are massively linked to the educational attainment of the parents.

For example: there is a broad correlation between lower educational attainment level and higher levels of maternal stress. This can have an impact on fetal health.

This question isn't about you. It's about your unborn child.

@Trousersareoverrated

It’s not shaming. Factors like education levels DO affect birth outcomes and the reasons for this need to be studied in order to try and balance out these health inequalities.

The duty is to the unborn baby to equalise it's health and educational outcome. This is why we have social institutions to support children, external to the family, until they are adults x