To thinking asking mothers educational level at booking appointment is shaming

[Ivybutterfly]

At my midwife booking appointment I was asked what age I left full time education. I remember the same question last time. They ask whether you have a degree or not. I found it rude and inappropriate. It is also irrelevant. I just sucked it up. My DH on the other hand was raging. He said it was shaming and disgusting. I agree. I think I am going to complain. Why so they ask such a rude question which has no relevance to pregnancy?

So my daughter has asthma not because her dad and grandparents on both sides have it she has it because I don't have a degree? So why don't her brothers have it then?

Oh god. Correlation, not causation. Population level outcomes. Not individual level explanations.

Any secondary teachers on this thread - Do you know if the difference between causation and corrolation get taught in GCSE maths/science? They should be!
(I don't remember learning about it until A-level/uni)

I don't get offended by questions like that, they are for statistics/research/signposting...it's not personal.

I agree with you that it seems a strange thing to ask and could make some mothers feel inferior. I've never been asked!

*correlation

Cross-post. Seriously - this is is school-level statistics/mathematics/logical reasoning. Correlation is NOT equal to causation. Smoking links to cancer does NOT mean Fred’s dad living to 98 smoking 23 packs a day cannot BOTH be true.

It is interesting how many academics are on here trying to make everyone else feel stupid. Britain is an unequal society. So little is done to fix it but we are asking mothers about their educational level so we are MAKING CHANGES! Oh no, wait. Too late by that point. Data is one thing, action another, but the action never comes.

So those kids are marked out as failures from the start? No wonder there's such a big divide

That’s not why there is a divide. The vocabulary gap between advantaged and disadvantaged children is starkly apparent by the time children are 2. That has a bigger effect on educational outcomes than nearly anything else. Maternal education is one of the indicators of disadvantage - though not the only one.

It’s nothing to do with “marking kids out” and everything to do with observable and extremely worrying facts.

@Ivybutterfly

It is interesting how many academics are on here trying to make everyone else feel stupid. Britain is an unequal society. So little is done to fix it but we are asking mothers about their educational level so we are MAKING CHANGES! Oh no, wait. Too late by that point. Data is one thing, action another, but the action never comes.

I don't think anyone would disagree with that - but action (if it does ever come...unlikely at the moment I would think) needs to be directed at the right places, hence it needs data behind it.

Different areas will ask things related to their local populations. Where my aunt works, they have lots of cousins marrying and related issues with genetic conditions. Where I work, domestic violence is really high. It is generally considered less prejudiced to ask everyone the same questions and not make a pre judgement who you need to ask.

Holly you probably have a point there, but that would be a lot more complex to ask, as living conditions fluctuate e.g. I might be living in one room at my mum's house whilst I save for a mortgage and in 6 months time things might be very different. Although my Health Visitor asked these questions e.g. do you own your home?

Asthma and allergies are linked both to smoking in pregnancy, and low breastfeeding rates.
Both are linked to deprivation and poverty.
Doesn't mean your dd isn't atypical. But there is a recognised association.

@Ivybutterfly

It is interesting how many academics are on here trying to make everyone else feel stupid. Britain is an unequal society. So little is done to fix it but we are asking mothers about their educational level so we are MAKING CHANGES! Oh no, wait. Too late by that point. Data is one thing, action another, but the action never comes.

you have decided that everyone who disagree with you MUST be an academic. Why is that?

Another example. I stopped exclusively breastfeeding at 4 months and stopped breastfeeding completely at 9 months. If I am shown credible research that there are certain population level benefits of exclusive breastfeeding for 6 months that does NOT mean that my specific child has been damaged. It does not mean anything about my particular child. It does not offend or shame me. I’m happy to evaluate the evidence for rigour etc but I won’t be applying it to my individual case - it’s just not how things work!!

@Madwife123 So how does this work for people who get a degree half way through life? I did a degree in my 30s.

What happens, let's say, if someone has a baby, then gets a degree, then has another baby? Does the second baby have a better health outcome than the first?

It's not like anybody comes back to you 22 years later to ask if your child graduated!

@HepLaurenceLB

Is it so they can work out if you are able to read and understand the written information that they give you.

If that’s the case then the other question asking if you need help with reading or writing would be sufficient

I agree with OP

[quote mynameiscalypso]@Tenyearsgone I understand what you mean but, practically, how does that help? How does it get the mother access to a dedicated and specialist midwife (as happens in my Trust)? How does it help local authorities get funding for drop in centres? [/quote]
Women should be looked at as individuals. Not as 'educated' or 'uneducated' Not everyone fits into a neat little box. What happens if a woman with a degree needs a specialist midwife etc? Is it assumed that their pregnancy will go smoothly and they won't need any extra help?

I do think it's offensive to assume a woman with a degree will be a better mother.

@Ivybutterfly In which case your complaint is surely about being “forced” to answer a question that you did not want to?

I’m not sure where privacy comes into it considering that at a booking appointment there are numerous personal and sensitive questions asked in order to plan your pregnancy care. All information is of course kept confidential and the questions that are used for statistics and future research use anonymous population based data.

I am on pregnancy number 4 and have never been asked this question at any of my booking appointments. We moved area after our first was born and neither areas have ever asked me this. Myself and my husband were both asked our occupation which was recorded but it went no further than that and nothing else was recorded - certainly no dates or when we left education etc. Is it an area thing do you think?

@AllesAusLiebe

I don't think of this as 'shaming'. It's a straightforward question. Whether you answer it or not is up to you.

I think a lot more carefully about which questions I choose to answer than I did previously. For what it's worth, parental religion is also a question that I find irrelevant. I always refuse to answer that one.

One of the reasons they ask mother’s religion is in case baby or mother suddenly become critically ill. Some religions require a member of the clergy to attend to perform religious rituals if death is imminent.

So a Catholic priest might be called quickly to baptise a baby who is born very prematurely and might live only a few hours.

A chaplain from the Seikh faith could advise staff not to remove religious items from a mother’s body. Or if they need to do so, how they should be treated and why it’s important to explain this to the family.

This is all of course as the patient wishes.

In moments of crisis, these things can be forgotten but they can be a great comfort later to the family. Or perhaps a course of great distress when things don’t happen.

Of course many patients have no religion and this will be noted as you wish.

@Ivybutterfly

It is interesting how many academics are on here trying to make everyone else feel stupid. Britain is an unequal society. So little is done to fix it but we are asking mothers about their educational level so we are MAKING CHANGES! Oh no, wait. Too late by that point. Data is one thing, action another, but the action never comes.

But you have made it clear you have a degree so are academic. And think working parents are 'poor' and likely to be 'alone'. Action IS occurring. The Healthy Child Programme run by health visitors and school nurses. 2 year funding. Local interventions e.g The better start blackpool initiative. You don't see it because you aren't receiving it. Doesn't mean it isn't happening.

What happens if you don’t do a degree but end up the CEO of some highly successful company

Success isn’t measured by grades

It is interesting how many academics are on here trying to make everyone else feel stupid. Britain is an unequal society. So little is done to fix it but we are asking mothers about their educational level so we are MAKING CHANGES! Oh no, wait. Too late by that point.
OP you are making no sense here at all.

Nobody on here is trying to make everyone else feel stupid. I also think it's amusing that you're trying to position yourself against 'academics'after highlighting your own level of education.

Your rant about an unequal society is admirable. It really is. But it has nothing to do with the fact you've made huge assumptions about poor working class women and don't like the fact that you've been robustly challenged.

@PeggyPorschen

Ivybutterfly If your husband is already "raging", I'd love to know how he would have reacted if (or when? I assume it's still being asked?) basically your husband is abusive and you need any support

Oh yes, those were always interesting with my spouse in the room. From being told it was important to get all the blood tests "in case your husband is cheating on you", to being asked if having a large family was something I specifically wanted with our third and fourth child, the OP's other half is going to need a much thicker skin if he's going to be much use at these appointments. The questions are only going to get most sensitive and many aren't put so delicately.

Britain is obsessed with class. It holds people back.

Maybe because I wasn't born British, but I don't see this as a class issue. I know plenty of people who are proud to not have 'wasted time' with degrees and just got to work.

So are you all saying that because a woman has a degree it's assumed that she will be a better parent?

As already said, this data is mainly for digging into at the population level, everything is more complicated once we get down to the individual level.

That said, having had my first child with only a bit of college done (and in this country less than a year) and then my fourth with a lot more under my best, I would have appreciated if the first time around someone recognized that I might have benefitted from more information and support rather than what happened where I repeatedly berated for things I didn't understand from protein in my urine to not knowing how many hours I needed to be vomitting and dry heaving before it was a concern. So many problems I had during my pregnancy and early years with my first would have been a lot easier if I had just been treated with some consideration and given some time and information to make up for my lack of experience in this system and the way the information was being presented. I wasn't less worthy or have less capacity for intelligence, it just wasn't something I was used to - some professionals were great about that, but far more used that against me.

Just like any other demographic with a history of worse outcomes, the issues can be how the system is handling them rather than the group themselves -- and we can't monitor that if no data is collected.

I actually do think it could be condescending.. I left school at 15. I think I’d worry that if I shared that then a HCP might look down on me or not treat me with the same level as respect as a degree educated mother, and that that they would make other presumptions about me. I’m not saying all would, but it was certainly something I noticed as a young mum.

Where has that assumption been made?
If the government know that uneducated parents equals uneducated children equals lower life expectancy across generations, is it better to ask questions or leave people to die early?
Love doesnt come into it.