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Child maintenance

468 replies

Orinoco82 · 09/11/2020 02:49

Hi all, this is my first post on here, feels a bit strange as I’m a bloke posting on Mumsnet but there we are!

I’m basically just after some advice and other folks opinion on an issue I’m having with my daughters mum regarding the maintenance that I pay to her monthly.

I’ll try not to go on too much so here goes.

I have a daughter who is 5 years old and lives with her mum. Her mum and I separated before she was born but I have been there since day one and have always paid maintenance on time and every time without fail and I have even given extra money and lent money (which I never got back) on occasion.

I normally pay just under £500 per month maintenance to my ex but when this Coronavirus crap first hit earlier this year and the country went into the first lock down, the company I work for basically cancelled all overtime and call out which would have a substantial impact on my earnings (approx down £1200-1500 per month). As soon as I found out my earnings were going to cut, I thought it only fair that I tell my ex that her maintenance will be reducing which, although not what she wanted, she didn’t give me too hard a hard time over. I normally do a lot of overtime as I have debts that I’m trying desperately to clear and I want to provide for my daughter at the same time. I said I will give what I can and hopefully the overtime will come back and I can start giving the normal amount again. I managed to give £300 as that was all I could manage that month.

After a month or so, some overtime returned and I was able to give a little more so I raised it to £400 per month. I have also bought my daughter clothes, shoes and other bits and bobs as any parent would do.

My company has now again removed all the overtime due to this second lockdown so I thought it right that I should tell my ex straight away that again, my earnings will be going down. This time she absolutely lost the plot and went nuts at me down the phone saying that I don’t provide for my child, make no time for my child, I’m a hopeless father etc.......... none of which is true.

I love my daughter dearly, she is all I have in the world. She lives over an hours drive away from where I live and I always collect her and drop her home and I’m more than happy to do this, my ex has dropped her to me 3 times in 5 years and every time asked me for £50 fuel for doing so (which I refused). I make sure that I have at least 2 weekends off per month so I can have her and spend time with her. If I finish work on a Friday at a reasonable time, I’ll go and pick her up for the weekend. If I’m off during the week, I’ll drive all the way down to where she is to pick her up from school and take her to the park and out for some dinner then get her back home and drive home again. If she has a school play or sports day or whatever, I’ll go there, watch her and then go to work. I honestly do the best I can so I find it very hurtful when I get told that I’m a hopeless father and I don’t provide. I don’t think that’s the case at all. I may be wrong, who knows.

The other thing that has annoyed me hugely is that she borrowed a hefty (to me at least) amount of money from me and when I mentioned this to her the other day (she’s owed to me for over 2 years), she says that because I have been giving less maintenance, then I can basically go and whistle for my money which I think is wrong.

The maintenance that I give her was worked out using the CMS calculator but we haven’t involved the CMS but I have told her that I now want to go down this route as I am sick of being told I’m not giving enough so at least this way, there can be no dispute. She has told me that she doesn’t want me to do this though. Don’t know why as surely it won’t affect her.

She is always telling me how she has no money yet she refuses to look for work, has a partner that works, has another child (who she gets maintenance for also). Surely if you’re that hard up for money, you’d do everything you could to find a part time job?Maybe that’s just me?!

I could understand her being angry with me if I was giving her a pittance and driving around in a lovely car, living in a big house and wearing fancy clothes etc........ but I have none of that. Yes I’m really into my cars but I haven’t had anything nice for quite some time but that is literally my only vice. My current car is worth about £1500 tops.

I’m very sorry, I’ve been rambling (more getting things off my chest I guess). I guess the question I’m asking is, am I really in the wrong to adjust the amount of maintenance I give considering I’m now earning considerably less money? I fully intend to pay the normal amount once my earnings go back up so I’m not looking to get away with not paying it, I’m not that kind of person.

Thanks very much for taking the time to read.

OP posts:
LouJ85 · 10/11/2020 20:29

We'll have to agree to disagree but imo you're not doing her any favours to teach her that a woman's role is to endure and make things better for everyone, while men can do comparatively little with impunity.

Sorry, what? Where did I say I was teaching her that a woman's role is to endure? If you read what I wrote, I said I'm teaching her that as a woman and a mother you do not need a man behind you to achieve whatever your life's ambitions are. I'm teaching her that despite the many challenges and obstacles you may face as a working mum, you can still achieve your dreams with hard work and determination. I'm teaching her that financial independence is achievable for women and single mothers.

But at the same time, she knows I can't "make things better for everyone" because she's inevitably seen me struggle to be all things to everyone at times because I'm human. And that's giving her a balanced message about what it means to be human, and to balance a successful career and a home life. It's not a walk in the park, but it's doable.

That's what I've taught my daughter.

LouJ85 · 10/11/2020 20:32

I'll also add that I most definitely do not see myself as someone who has had to "endure" anything. I made life choices and some of them have come with difficulties that I've had to work to overcome. But that's ok, I take responsibility for that. To "endure" would be to see myself as a victim of circumstance, which I choose not to.

MessAllOver · 10/11/2020 20:33

The message children receive when mum does 6/7 of the parenting and bears most of the financial burden is that caring is a woman's responsibility not a man's.

LouJ85 · 10/11/2020 21:40

@MessAllOver
Ok.. I give up. You're just choosing to believe your own narrative and you are not open minded enough to accept alternative views and experiences. So I wish you well and I will step away from this thread.

MessAllOver · 10/11/2020 21:44

@LouJ85. Happy to agree to disagree and leave the point.

Your lived experiences have obviously given you a particular perspective on this. It's just that I think differently.

Best of luck to you and your lovely DC - they're lucky to have such a strong mum Flowers.

Graphista · 10/11/2020 22:35

I have read a number of threads from mother pulling the 'I couldn't earn what my ex does because I was a rp and was limited as such', then you read further posts from them and read that they have few if not no qualifications and limited work experience before becoming a mum

I haven’t seen that and it’s not true for me either.

I had a degree and a career before having dd. I changed job when I had her partly as we moved (ex was army) and partly as in theory that was a better fit for us as a family I became a childminder.

As we were in service Accom when I suspected his affair and could see chances were the marriage would be ending I didn’t want to leave clients stuck so I phased out as it were and stopped just before the split, as far as I told him because I wanted a break and to spend more time with dd alone. He accepted that.

When things came to a head and we split I was a Sahm, but I had good qualifications, experience and references plus as the economy was going on at this point I was quickly able to find a job that fitted in with childcare provision - straight away I WAS limited because I couldn’t have taken a better paid job as it would have required me to do hours and days I couldn’t cover with paid childcare. I couldn’t be a childminder as my new landlords wouldn’t allow it, I could have decided them but that would have left me open to my liability insurance being invalid if anything were to happen and quite honestly I wouldn’t have risked my tenancy!

Ex was neither use nor ornament! He certainly was never reliable on the childcare side I couldn’t have risked an issue there. Not just personality wise of course but if he was deployed he wouldn’t be available anyway.

So I got a just above entry level admin role that was mon-fri 9-5.

As time went on and circumstances changed I hit various obstacles with childcare and employment due to YES being a single mum with no support network to speak of and a declining economy. One provider I was using went bust as a result of the banking crisis eg. Sure I’m not the only one that happened to.

There are shades of single motherhood/parenthood.

Some have good support networks, reliable exes who pay regular and consistent cm, are flexible and available if eg child takes sick, have understanding and genuinely flexible employers and good reliable childcare etc

Others have bugger all support network, useless or completely absent exes, no cm, arsehole employers and poor childcare provision available locally.

Just because ONE person or even two were able to work full time, find and afford good childcare, manage all the other crap that comes with running a family and home DOESN’T MEAN EVERYONE CAN!

Look outside your own experience and see how different it can be for others depending on their particular circumstances.

All 3 of us in my family, me and my siblings have been single parents at some point.

Sister gets a LOT of support from my mum and always has. She is very much the gc, and parents have been bailing her out her whole life. She’s got 3 dc but mum not only covers out of hours childcare (weeks at a time sometimes), financially bails her out repeatedly (but sister still shops at the more expensive shops and loves her brands etc) she also does a LOT of running her dc around to clubs etc, does a significant amount of her housework for her and even does things like makes her and the dgc drs appointments etc she’s like a pa, nanny and housekeeper all in one.

Brother prior to remarrying had good bosses who were very understanding and flexible for him, he found good childcare relatively easily and could afford it as he had a relatively well paid career that he was already going quite well in before he became a single parent. He had savings too which admittedly went down fast initially but he could afford it. His ex had sadly died so quite unusual circumstances.

I had all sorts of shenanigans from ex to deal with, worked after split initially well first couple years, then went back to uni planning to retrain, worked again after uni at first well about 5 years aside from the few months following breakdown, until becoming too incapacitated to work.

Unfortunately mum was already well enmeshed in supporting sister and frankly couldn’t be relied on by me or dd. Dysfunctional family dynamics at play here.

I was

LUCKY to have the ability to have obtained a higher education

LUCKY to have found work relatively easily when I was still able to work

LUCKY to find decent childcare when I was working

LUCKY to be able to work for as long as I did after the accident. Even drs have been surprised at that one

UNLUCKY to come from a dysfunctional and in real terms unsupportive family

UNLUCKY that my health declined when and how it did

It’s all just luck!

If you’re lucky enough to be fit, healthy, capable and able to find and maintain a decent job and find decent childcare, and have a support network as a single parent then acknowledge that LUCK!

It is NOT just about "hard work" I worked hard my whole adult life before becoming incapacitated. I'd LOVE to be working now because life as a disabled person on benefits right now sucks! It is NOT the life of luxury some who've NEVER EXPERIENCED IT seem to think.

emptydreamer · 10/11/2020 22:59

At my insistence we are 50/50 tenants in common, even though my solicitor obviously advised that I could protect my money by owning in uneven shares.
I think your solicitor (conveyancer?), despite having good intentions, probably wasn't an expert in family law - once you are married, the starting point becomes joint tenants and a 50/50 split, there would be very limited protection for your personal contribution.

Youseethethingis · 10/11/2020 23:56

@emptydreamer
Starting point and finishing points are different. Anyway, we are in Scotland, most of the money was from an inheritance and I absolutely could have ring fenced it.

Youseethethingis · 10/11/2020 23:58

@emptydreamer
Also, married couples can be tenants in common, don’t have to be joint. This way protects inheritance for his DD and my DS too.

Graphista · 11/11/2020 00:02

@S00LA excellent post at 0935 and you're right of course people could be posting completely disingenuously

@HugeAckmansWife also an exception post at 0944

@Nicknamegoeshere please push on. The decision to leave was the right one, yes it's hard now but it won't always be this hard I'm sure it will (gradually) get easier

I live with a man who experiences this sort of treatment regularly from his exW

Seems S00LA's suspicions may be correct

UC is based on the basis that maintenance isn't paid so no child should go drastically without even if maintenance is low.

😂😂😂

Yea cos UC is SO generous!

@Busdriver81 do you REALLY THINK an rp would go to all the expense and hassle of MOVING HOME for no good reason?! Of course not! The vast majority of the time it's because they simply cannot afford on a single income to remain in the area they lived with the ex as a 2 income family.

I moved "home" due to cheaper housing, more job prospects and the promise of support from family (didn't actually happen but I had no way of knowing this at the time)

Ex being army anyway and having zero other ties to where we were living when we split was being ridiculous in not wanting me to move away. Less than 3 months later he was moved to other side of the country anyway!

Where I moved to had excellent transport links to the rest of the Uk too meaning wherever ex ended up he/dd could easily get to each other.

It is NEVER a good idea to think blanket rules would work!

@Ideasplease322 totally agree with your post at 2006

and you are not open minded enough to accept alternative views and experiences Er...not a hint of irony there? No?

Londongirlanon · 11/11/2020 00:27

Hi OP, it sounds like you're being more than reasonable and are also a great dad. I think some people on MN forget that your payments are made to facilitate the upbringing of your child and not to subsidize his/hers mothers lifestyle. If your situation changes, within reason, so should your payments. In the same way that if you and your ex were still together and you had a hard month/had your hours cut down/lost your job, there may not be as many days out or Xmas presents that year. I'd suggest you check the CMS calculator, while it's a BARE minimum you will know how much on top of that you can afford to pay after taking into account how much you look after your little one and any little extras you already pay for. I hope you manage to get this sorted x

Ideasplease322 · 11/11/2020 00:58

Londongirl - OP calculated the original amount using cms, so he knows what he has to pay as the bar minimum and that is what he was paying.

He then cut it by almost 40%

He Also continued to pay less than the cMs (bare minimum) When his overtime returned.

Based on the figures he provided he was paying less than the cms (bare minimum) when his overtime was cut.

I’m not saying he is a bad dad, just not the amazingly generous block everyone is making out.

Busdriver81 · 11/11/2020 09:25

@Graphista - so moving away the child from the NRP will no doubt affect the child maintenance. How is this fair on the NRP , he/she will lose more contact with child and then bam double whammy has to pay more out through no choice of there own.

I still believe if access and maintenance was linked there would not be as much conflict as what happens now.

Isthatitnow · 11/11/2020 09:34

I still believe if access and maintenance was linked there would not be as much conflict as what happens now

So what would happen in my situation? My ex hasn't paid maintenance in 12 years. He sees the children regularly. Should I have stopped him seeing them? He appears to not give a toss about whether they are fed and watered so he can hardly be described a good parent.....except he has seen them solidly and they enjoy a positive relationship with him on the whole. Should I have been allowed to deny my children that relationship?

Nicknamegoeshere · 11/11/2020 09:34

@Busdriver81 But if NRP makes the choice (for whatever reason) to move away, then they have to accept that this may be at the cost of seeing their children less.
I'd love to clear off to Wales with my fiancé and my baby girl and start again, but I won't because I have 50/50 of my two boys with my ex-husband.

Dddaddy · 11/11/2020 09:37

@Isthatitnow

I still believe if access and maintenance was linked there would not be as much conflict as what happens now

So what would happen in my situation? My ex hasn't paid maintenance in 12 years. He sees the children regularly. Should I have stopped him seeing them? He appears to not give a toss about whether they are fed and watered so he can hardly be described a good parent.....except he has seen them solidly and they enjoy a positive relationship with him on the whole. Should I have been allowed to deny my children that relationship?

Same.

I’ve never had a penny from him but he’s seen them regularly and provided for them while they were with him.

I don’t think maintenance and access should be linked for that reason.

Once we split he had no obligation to support me. It’s his abuse and coercive control that left me unable to fight him, but at the end of the day I choose not to go after him for money for reasons at the time that made sense to me.

I can either make my peace with that and accept it, or rail against it for the rest of time.

One is healthy for me and one not so.

Dddaddy · 11/11/2020 09:39

We had a clause in our judgment of divorce that if either of us moved out of area, custody would revert to the other parent.

He put that in because he wanted to restrict me, the irony is he was the one who wanted to move years later and it bit him on the bum.

Busdriver81 · 11/11/2020 09:51

@Isthatitnow - is that not contradictory? If your ex has them I assume he has to feed them etc? Which is why I advocate 50/50 then the costs are the same and neither parent are losing out financially.

dontdisturbmenow · 11/11/2020 09:53

The message children receive when mum does 6/7 of the parenting and bears most of the financial burden is that caring is a woman's responsibility not a man's
I too disagree. That was my dad's experience but she is now embarking on a very career minded future and as she wants children too, she very much sees as a 50/50 responsibility. She's already said that she'll make very sure her future partner is fully engaged that way before considering having children.

If you’re lucky enough to be fit, healthy, capable and able to find and maintain a decent job and find decent childcare, and have a support network as a single parent then acknowledge that LUCK

I see it from the other side of the coin. The vast majority of single parents will be in good health, will have access to childcare and able to claim UC to help if needed and therefore could work ft.

A minority will be unlucky through their circumstances and won't be able to work ft, which is more than fair enough.

Notrightbutok · 11/11/2020 10:11

500 is a lot for one child. I get 550 for two children and my ex earns 800 p/w.

Ideasplease322 · 11/11/2020 10:46

@Notrightbutok

500 is a lot for one child. I get 550 for two children and my ex earns 800 p/w.
The poster used cms - he earns a good bit more than your ex. He also said nearly £500, so it’s probably closer to £475.

There is real view in this thread that higher earners either don’t exist, or shouldn’t have to pay commensurate with their earnings.

On one hand we have people stressing the CMS is the bare minimum, this guy was paying CMS before he significantly dropped it (by much more than his earnings dropped) Yet everyone thinks he is paying too much.

Strange logic

HugeAckmansWife · 11/11/2020 10:49

BusDriver I moved away AFTER my ex left for ow. He chose eow contact only and moved 2 hours away. I then subsequently increased the distance further due o housing costs and support from family. Why should I spend 15 years struggling to make ends meet because he bailed out on his family? He still sees them, moans constantly about how tiring and expensive it is but compared to the day to day stuff and expenses, I know who has the 'easier' time and it's not me. RPs, especially if they did not choose the split, should not be nailed to one place.

SoVeryLost · 11/11/2020 11:14

@Ideasplease322
You are saying exactly what I’ve been thinking. The OP’s ex gets more than a lot of women but that does not mean that OP should therefore pay less or is paying too much. It’s based on earnings, I’d love for that to change and for the cost of being up children to be shared more equally. I don’t know how you force that but it is a joke that CMS goes as low as nothing/£7, as far as I’m aware no child costs that little to feed alone.

SoVeryLost · 11/11/2020 11:14

Bringing not being.

HugeAckmansWife · 11/11/2020 11:42

I think there should be a minimum amount of at least £300 p/c with maybe an extra mandatory £150 per additional child (random numbers, insert whatever was deemed reasonable). If the NRP does not or cannot pay that, then the Gov does and it is racked up as a debt to the NRP. Where the CMS amount would be higher, that is the minimum amount owed and likewise paid by the Gov and chased by HMRC if the NRP fails to pay. Arrears should not be written off. That is money owed to the child. In a properly funded service individual cases of hardship could be properly assessed and the debt forgiven but the child still gets the funds. The money is FOR THE CHILD, not the RPs "lifestyle" as so many NRPs like to moan.