AIBU to think that secondary school teachers should be apolitical in classroom and encourage debate

[vdbfamily]

DS17 and DD14 both came home today and seperately stated that they were surprised their teachers were allowed to be so anti Republican/Trump and that there was an assumption everyone agreed with them. FWIW neither of my kids like Trump but they felt uncomfortable with the fact that teachers were making derogatory comments about any idiots who voted for Trump and this was several teachers for both of them. WIBU to contact school and suggest it should be a place where students are encouraged to discuss pro's and cons of different parties and not get dictated to about such things! My daughter was saying that some of the kids who would not have known any different were then parroting the teachers views without really knowing what they were talking about.

God, there are some Mumsnetters who really, really despise teachers

The quote you replied to was referring to teachers who abuse their position. It was made by me. I've repeatedly said in this thread just how much my "fantastic" history teacher had influenced my life in a very positive way.

Please stop agitating for conflict where there isn't any

I don’t know how often politics even comes up in my classroom tbh.

No one asked me about my opinion of the US election, but if they had, I would have stated that in general I am happy Biden won, as an found the majority of trumps beliefs to be problematic at best.

That’s not to say I think the Republican Party is problematic - although I do think I would be a democrat if I were American. I am typically a centralist here, probably slightly more to the left.

America didn't vote to get rid of Republicans.
Just Trump
I know, but he ran on a Republican ticket with a Republican running mate, and was selected as a candidate by the Republican party.
There will be people voting Trump because they are Republican, not because they love Trump, as the alternative is a Democrat candidate and they don't want a Democrat agenda for America (either for economic reasons, social reasons or a mixture of both).

And anyway, my issue was with the claim that anyone who is good would automatically be on the opposite side to Trump.The approach of A is always right and B is always wrong isn't conducive to sensible debate.

But it isn't just a "someone", it's a teacher in a position of authority, an adult in a position of power and privilege in front of a classroom full of malleable minds, children who are still forming their own political opinions
And yet I think it was you who upthread said students know if a teacher is pushing a political agenda.
So sharing an opinion is political activism, students can tell when someone is pushing activism, but they also are so malleable that they are open to being brainwashed.

I completely agree with you! I'm a university lecturer and we have to be really careful about what we say, otherwise it could mean disciplinary action. We are there to teach, not influence political opinions by abusing our power.
I agree, as do the teacher standards.

However there is a difference between using professional judgement to decide if and when to share (in line with the professional standards) and what some on this thread are claiming where any expression of a personal view is disgraceful, unprofessional and breaking the standards.

If you can't see that using professional judgement to decide how and when to share is perfectly acceptable and allowed within the standards then that's not my problem
Well that's the issue, I don't think these teachers are being professional. Teaching is educating, sharing one's political view using insult isn't in any way teaching.

As a poster said, what arrogance to assume that you know much about US politics when in all likelihood, your supposed knowledge is based on trading biased forums and media who are much more interested in sensationalism than US Political Science.

We are however allowed to give facts. If the facts happen to point to Trump/Tories/other being ba people based on social morality and the wellbeing of the majority of people, then that's not our fault...
This is so scary to read. What arrogance to think that your opinion is fact. This is the exact concept I expected my kids to learn, that opinions are NEVER facts. So sad to read that some teachers don't have the professionalism to respect this.

However there is a difference between using professional judgement to decide if and when to share (in line with the professional standards) and what some on this thread are claiming where any expression of a personal view is disgraceful, unprofessional and breaking the standards
Someone mentioned playing devils advocate to encourage debate. No issue with that if the teacher is prepared to pretend for instance a political figure/party they despise.

That's very different to this sort of propaganda:

We are however allowed to give facts. If the facts happen to point to Trump/Tories/other being ba people based on social morality and the wellbeing of the majority of people, then that's not our fault...

Well that's the issue, I don't think these teachers are being professional. Teaching is educating, sharing one's political view using insult isn't in any way teaching
I've not once said it's fine to insult.

That's what is hilarious about this thread. It's always 'political activism' or 'lecturing' or 'pushing an agenda' or 'using insult' vs saying nothing. There's a number of posters deliberately trying to present a false dichotomy to push their view.

Lecturing, using insults etc break the teacher standards. I don't see many people claiming that would be acceptable.

Thankfully (contrary to claims by some posters) the teacher standards don't forbid sharing personal views and they outline what it expected. There's space for professional judgement to be exercised and teachers can make their decisions within the standards.
Amusingly though pointing this out has seen claims this means I don't think there's room for different styles.

@vdbfamily, apologies if I'm not the first to suggest this as I haven't read the whole thread, but if you do write you could reference section 5.33 of the DfE's "Staffing and Employment Advice for Schools" document which makes it clear that schools can't promote political views.

dontdisturbmenow
I totally agree with your second post by the way. That sort of approach is wrong.

I'm quite happy that some students thought I was a Tory. It means that although I've shared personal views at appropriate occasions, no individual class has a full profile of my political views.

I feel the same. My DD12 listened to her PHSE teacher talking about BLM etc and asked her if she was a Wokist? 😂 (she said yes btw).

When I was at school I liked that teachers would discuss their views and why they held them.

And anyway, my issue was with the claim that anyone who is good would automatically be on the opposite side to Trump.The approach of A is always right and B is always wrong isn't conducive to sensible debate.
I agree with this

We had the same with Brexit. English teacher at my DS boy’s grammar school told her class that anyone who votes for Brexit is an idiot.

I called the school!

We had the same with Brexit. English teacher at my DS boy’s grammar school told her class that anyone who votes for Brexit is an idiot.

I called the school!
And rightly so.
That goes beyond expressing a personal view on a topic to being plain rude and insulting. It also breaks the teacher standards.

I'm quite happy that some students thought I was a Tory. It means that although I've shared personal views at appropriate occasions, no individual class has a full profile of my political views
We agree. It's not debating that is the issue, it's sharing one's political view emotionally fuelled that is the concern.

OP said the teacher mentioned the idiots who voted for trump. That's opignated, unprofessional, and irrelevant to what she would be teaching.

As former teacher of 25 years I would never discuss politics with my tutor groups. It is wrong for teachers to try to brainwash students with their own views. Politics belong in a politics lesson with students having open debates on policies.

@LucilleBluth

We had the same with Brexit. English teacher at my DS boy’s grammar school told her class that anyone who votes for Brexit is an idiot.

I called the school!

And I would have done the same. However, the debate that ensued when my DDs were told to 'fuck off back where you came from' the day after the referendum (they were born in the UK!) was necessary and I am very glad the teacher in question entered into it. You can't be neutral on something like that.

I agree with you. And as a teacher I’m surprised that teachers were saying these things. I can’t imagine any teacher I work with speaking like that to a class! I’d therefore take it with a pinch of salt. You may find quotes have been taken out of context by your kids.

You certainly shouldn’t be saying that nearly half of America are idiots! What’s interesting is why so many people voted Trump. That is what should be teased out in class.

I made formal complaint at ds last school when Boris won election and his form tutor told whole class that Boris winning was very bad for education and people who voted for him should be shot. My son (SN) takes words very literally and came home telling me his teacher wanted to shoot anyone who voted for Boris. He was quite distressed. I was not only parent to complain to his school. All could have been avoided if teacher had kept his opinion to himself.

dontdisturbmenow
Yes, the teacher in the OP's situation was wrong.

My gripe has been people falsely claiming that teachers aren't allowed to express any view, it's unprofessional to share a view and that the standards prevent it, when that simply isn't the case.

Anyone with an ounce of sense knows there is a difference between going on an ideological rant or insulting people for their political beliefs and making a professional judgement to respond to the debate and questions going on in front of you.

caringcarer
The teacher there was our of order and I'd have complained too. It's those sorts of situations that warrant complaints.

As former teacher of 25 years I would never discuss politics with my tutor groups. It is wrong for teachers to try to brainwash students with their own views.

And as a former teacher, you regard the verbs "to discuss" and "to brainwash" as synonymous?

Interesting debate.
Just to repeat the context, it was not a discussion re politics, it took place in History and Maths GCSE prep classes at start of class. Interestingly, my kids are in year 10 and 11 and share some teachers and it seems the same teachers did it at the start of each class so was not an exasperated outburst but obviously deliberate choice to start each class that way but no opportunity for students to respond.
I agree that Trump should be called out on his misogyny and certainly on his inability to lose fairly, but maybe a discussion on the sort of personalities that aspire to such powerful positions, or discussion about how much power the leader of a political party actually has in different countries and what safeguards are in place to protect the world from their decisiions if needed. Maybe discussion as to why so many million people support someone like Trump and how some people will vote for a party or a policy as opposed to the person. It is interesting how many people have referenced his separating kids from parents and keeping in cages when I am pretty sure that started under Obama but no-one called him out on it.
I have read all the comments and am not really sure what I think now but I do know that there is one teacher who my 14 year old says she really respects as he facilitates great debates but refuses to tell them what his opinion actually is. She can see at the age of 14 that they learn in a far more balanced way with this approach. They also have a debating club where people have to produce arguments for 2 sides, even if they don't believe. My DD had to argue pro fox hunting for example. So school are doing some things well but still have individual teachers going a bit rogue!!

vdbfamily
Outbursts like that aren't appropriate.

In my experience as a teacher and as a student, teenagers respect staff whether they share or don't as long as the teacher is honest and tolerant. Someone who says 'my opinion is X' whilst also giving platforms to other views, modelling tolerance and promoting debate can be just as respected as someone who says 'I don't like to discuss my personal views with students'.

Where staff lose credibility in my experience is where they go rogue (as you put it ) or outright lie to the students by pretending they are neutral on every topic when it's obviously a lie.

It was in the US and not here, so I do not think it is a problem. Trump stands for everything that is anti-decency on all levels. The school will be trying to instill values of decency and kindness in the atmosphere of the institution, so it is impossible for them to sit on the fence on Trump's aberrations.

Mischance
The OP's situation wasn't about the school promoting good values. It was a teacher going on an unsolicited rant at the start of a lesson.

If the school wish to specifically cover a topic then material can be put into tutor time or PSHE. After the Brexit referendum my school did some tutor discussions with students to facilitate debate as tensions were high. It would have been inappropriate for any teacher to start their lessons by gloating or ranting about the result.

Same for Trump.

Now if a student asked what a teacher thought of Trump, they are allowed to express a view as long as it is done within the standards, but that's not the OP's situation.

As a secondary teacher, I agree. I've taught a unit about UK democracy which coincided with an election a few years ago and it was interesting to spark debate and look at all the promos and manifestos. We held a mini election on polling day. Labour won but there were some vocal Tories in the class too. I personally wanted to show them that they needed to seriously consider all the parties and really find out what they stood for.