AIBU to think that secondary school teachers should be apolitical in classroom and encourage debate

[vdbfamily]

DS17 and DD14 both came home today and seperately stated that they were surprised their teachers were allowed to be so anti Republican/Trump and that there was an assumption everyone agreed with them. FWIW neither of my kids like Trump but they felt uncomfortable with the fact that teachers were making derogatory comments about any idiots who voted for Trump and this was several teachers for both of them. WIBU to contact school and suggest it should be a place where students are encouraged to discuss pro's and cons of different parties and not get dictated to about such things! My daughter was saying that some of the kids who would not have known any different were then parroting the teachers views without really knowing what they were talking about.

DH has explained to our DS' that his teacher of A level Politics spent 2 years explaining and putting both sides of the arguments factually and teaching critical thinking skills. At the end of the course, DH had absolutely no idea what his teachers own political views were. That is how it should be.

There is nothing wrong with encouraging debate. What is wrong is for teachers to bring their political activism into the classroom.

There is a website for example, I'll try find it, which directs teachers on how to promote a BLM perspective in schools. BLM is a political movement

Would it be OK for the EDL to do this? To set up a website encouraging the promotion of a nationalist political movement in schools by teachers sympathetic to that cause.

This is the problem. It works both ways. If a teachers is very left wing and is pushing their own personal politics on students, then why not a teacher of the opposite end of the political spectrum

The answer is to keep ANY political opinion out of the classroom. Because that's what it is, an opinion. Keep it too yourself for later discussion down the pub, or in an online forum. There is no need to push it onto children, it iant about you. Infact not even your own children. Debate and discuss events, the news yes, but not force your own views onto them

I agree with you op. I think teachers should be apolitical. I'm often quite shocked at what I see on FB from teachers - lots of stuff there that is get disciplined for (I'm a civil servant and being apolitical is a key requirement of the job).

@PamDenick

My DD came home telling me her history teacher was pro-Trump. She quoted the Middle Eastern peace deal brokered by him. This made her think. Yes, Trump has told 20000 untruths whilst in office. But 60 million people chose to vote for him in the last few days. Does this mean they are all idiots? The teacher then pulled back and told the class that she shouldn't be talking about this. I won't be writing in to complain. These little leaked opinions are useful for children to hear. Otherwise the only narrative they would hear is that Trump is an evil, self-serving narcissist. (DD hears enough of that from her dad. ) Teachers aren't robots.

I think that comments like this, not necessarily about a personal view, but i some way challenging the student's assumptions, can be a really good thing.

So what about how Trump has managed the mddle east, or international relations?

What about the fact that some of Trump's popular talking points used to be things that leftist parties promoted, while things he opposed, like free trade, were traditionally opposed by groups on the left representing working class people?

Etc.

There isn't any need for a teacher to support anyone openly in school, but they should absolutely asking the kids hard questions that open them to new perspectives and facts.

At the end of the course, DH had absolutely no idea what his teachers own political views were. That is how it should be

This absolutely this

I had a fantastic history teacher at school. My memories of him still inspire my love of history now. A very elderly gentleman who always wore a suit. Always very smartly dressed. Always serious and old fashioned in his way of teaching. He was actually so old he was able to tell us about his memories of WW1.

It wasn't until later, after I'd left school, that my dad, who sometimes drank with him in the pub, told me he was a communist. He had never ever pushed his politics on us ever. To him that would have been unethical. He always taught us history in a balanced way, especially our local working class history. What a fantastic old school history teacher he was.

@LolaSmiles

A third option is Trump has done X,Y and Z and then the pupils can discuss whether it is bad or not. The teacher's opinion is neither here nor there

I see.
"Trump has talked about grabbing women by the pussy, but as your teacher I shall say nothing on this and just hope you realise that misogyny isn't ok"

"Boris has made racist comments about Muslim women, but as your teacher I should ignore the professional standards I've signed up to and say nothing"

Yeah, actually, it's not hard to so this well when it's an appropriate comment.

"Yes, President Trump did make that comment. What do you think of that? Do you think that when someone votes for someone, it means they endorse them personally or think they are good? How do voters decide what to do? What if they don't like any of their choices?"

There has been a big change in education toward this idea that it's really the job of teachers to tell kids what's moral and good. It's nothing to d with a right or left wing conspiracy, and it happens across political lines.

It's unnecessary, and frankly teachers have no special insight or training that allows them to understand moral questions or politics to a greater degree than anyone else. Why would any parent, be they a bricklayer or professional philosopher, want a teacher to be instructing their kids about ethics or morality?

Sharing a personal view isn't activism.

The issue with activist material in schools is that it can be too easily presented as the only view, or as the authority on a particular topic (especially if the organisation appears to have some social standing).

There's a huge issue if staff are pushing their political views, behaving in a way that ridicules different views and acting in a way that breaks part 2 of the standards.

Sharing an opinion at an appropriate time is neither of those things.

He always taught us history in a balanced way, especially our local working class history. What a fantastic old school history teacher he was.
Whereas I feel the same about a couple of old RE teachers. One was openly Christian but his passion and teaching of other religions was inspirational. He didn't teach in a biased way, he was just open about his position. I knew how my history teacher felt about politics but they were an excellent teacher and great at playing devil's advocate.

I'm sometimes more sceptical of people who claim they're totally neutral because the likelihood is their biases will be seeping through their teaching as they claim otherwise due to a fairly sizable blindspot.

I expect my children's teachers to be on the side of truth, facts, reality and morality.

That would always put them on the other side of things from soon to be ex-President Trump.

And that's as it should be.

I expect my children's teachers to be on the side of truth, facts, reality and morality.

That would always put them on the other side of things from soon to be ex-President Trump.

And that's as it should be.

Not always. There's a lot of debate that could be had about the Republican platform the he signed up for and it would be wrong for a teacher to dismiss that just because they don't agree with it.

The crucial difference is:
'Personally I disagree with those policies / something he did'
Vs
'Trump is always wrong. Fact.'

Sharing a personal view isn't activism.

Personal views are like backsides, everyone's got one, but personal views are often political, sometimes extremely so and some views are dangerous or too complicated for children to understand .

Say a history teacher is a holocaust denier for example, an extremely unusual view for any historian, but still for the sake of argument he/she is. That's his/her view, it's also likely tied in with political views but If I found that a child, or grandchild, of mine had been exposed to that peraonal view in the classroom, I would be straight down to the LA, to make a formal complaint. Wouldn't you?

I know that the above scenario is unlikely to happen, thankfully, but where does giving your opinion start and where does it end?

@Tier2Minus

I expect my children's teachers to be on the side of truth, facts, reality and morality.

That would always put them on the other side of things from soon to be ex-President Trump.

And that's as it should be.

Given that Biden's history isn't much better.

I would be trying to get pupils to research and form their own opinions.

Flaxmeadow
You and I both know that Holocaust denial is totally not the same as someone sharing their thoughts on climate change, the actions of a world leader etc.

In terms of where it starts and ends, I support teachers drawing their own lines and exercising professional judgement within what's allowed in the teacher standards. So much depends on the class, the topic, the nature of the lesson, age of students, and obviously how it's expressed.

I don't think it's black and white, and have reservations about the standards about the standards being deliberately misrepresented.

You and I both know that Holocaust denial is totally not the same as someone sharing their thoughts on climate change, the actions of a world leader etc.

But thise are personal opinions and that was not my point anyway. A teacher might have extreme views, be a holocaust denier or a white or black nationalist or whatever extremity, but the law is very specific that those personal views, whether they be mild or extreme, should not be shared in the classroom. None of them should be shared. A solid line needs to be drawn and especially to prevent extreme views, left or right, getting through

What is a teacher hoping to achieve by sharing their own personal political views, mild or extreme, with pupils anyway? Is it to influence them, is it a big ego trip having a captive audience to lecture to, a power thing. What is the benefit to the pupils exactly?

What is a teacher hoping to achieve by sharing their own personal political views, mild or extreme, with pupils anyway? Is it to influence them, is it a big ego trip having a captive audience to lecture to, a power thing. What is the benefit to the pupils exactly?

It depends on the subject being taught, but in a lot of situations it wouldn't be about influencing them, it's about stimulating debate. The question will be asked: 'What do you think, Miss/Sir?' And if you fob your class off with 'It's not for me to say' or similar waffle, you're going to come off as completely fake and not worth engaging with. If we start enforcing neutrality, students will know that this is being enforced from above and it will be that much more difficult for a teacher to establish trust and rapport.

One of DD2's teachers is a staunch Tory, has some views on feminism, race and gender issues that are decidedly antediluvian - but he is honest about them and accepts that not everyone in the class will agree with him. This means everyone has a voice in his class, including those whose views are similar to his, and there is open discussion. I see this as a far better option than forced neutrality.

What would an Ofsted inspector say if they were observing you giving your own opinions? Or does that not matter. FWIW I hate Ofsted

What would an Ofsted inspector say if they were observing you giving your own opinions? Or does that not matter. FWIW I hate Ofsted
If it's irrelevant and adding nothing to the lesson then they would rightly question it.
If it is part of a relevant discussion and the students are learning then no issue.

Then again I never change my lessons for when Ofsted come in.

This thread reminds me of someone I knew who thought they were the most professional and upstanding teacher because they never shared anything personal with the students and they'd claim thay colleagues who do are being friends with students/aren't respected / didn't have good behaviour management because they relied on being mates etc. In reality most people chose to share different amounts depending on the topic/class etc and sometimes a personal anecdote can actually help illuminate a concept or act as a hinge point for further discussion. Almost all teachers would say that over sharing is hugely problematic, but this teacher seemed to think it was either unprofessional overhearing or her super detached top professional.

In reality professional judgement exists precisely because things aren't black and white.

It depends on the subject being taught, but in a lot of situations it wouldn't be about influencing them, it's about stimulating debate.

But a good teacher can stimulate debate without giving their own personal political opinion

The question will be asked: 'What do you think, Miss/Sir?' And if you fob your class off with 'It's not for me to say' or similar waffle, you're going to come off as completely fake and not worth engaging with. If we start enforcing neutrality, students will know that this is being enforced from above and it will be that much more difficult for a teacher to establish trust and rapport

The teacher could say, "it would be unethical for me to give you my own personal opinion in the classroom". Which would be the truth. They could add, "but if you see me down the pub in a couple of years, ask me again and I will".

Children are perceptive. They know when a teacher is being honest. Also know when a teacher is pushing their own personal political agenda.

Also, as a PP said earlier in the thread, there is the effect that some children will rebel against a teachers personal view, or anyone elders view, whatever they say. If a teacher repeatedly drones on about their personal opinions on climate change or "Trump is a racist" or whatever then it gets boring, just like it would for anyone. They know they are being lectured to by a political activist, whether they're in the classroom or outside of it

@LolaSmiles

What would an Ofsted inspector say if they were observing you giving your own opinions? Or does that not matter. FWIW I hate Ofsted If it's irrelevant and adding nothing to the lesson then they would rightly question it. If it is part of a relevant discussion and the students are learning then no issue.

Then again I never change my lessons for when Ofsted come in.

This thread reminds me of someone I knew who thought they were the most professional and upstanding teacher because they never shared anything personal with the students and they'd claim thay colleagues who do are being friends with students/aren't respected / didn't have good behaviour management because they relied on being mates etc. In reality most people chose to share different amounts depending on the topic/class etc and sometimes a personal anecdote can actually help illuminate a concept or act as a hinge point for further discussion. Almost all teachers would say that over sharing is hugely problematic, but this teacher seemed to think it was either unprofessional overhearing or her super detached top professional.

In reality professional judgement exists precisely because things aren't black and white.

You're being very unkind about your colleague. I wouldn't like to work with you. There's room for all sorts of teaching styles

Children are perceptive. They know when a teacher is being honest. Also know when a teacher is pushing their own personal political agenda
You're right. They are perceptive and they know when a teacher is being honest.

They know when they're being fobbed off and they know the difference between an opinion and someone pushing an agenda.

If people choose not to share then great, if people choose to share then students aren't stupid and are more than capable of understanding different adults think different things.

You're being very unkind about your colleague. I wouldn't like to work with you. There's room for all sorts of teaching styles
I'm not being unkind. I disliked their attitude because it smacked of superiority and didn't believe there was room for different styles.

As I've said repeatedly, I think teachers should be free to share as much or as little as they would like depending on the context as long as they don't break the standards.

Unfortunately, there's colleagues out there who have decided thay because they wouldn't use an anecdote, or share something personal, or share an opinion that anyone who does is unprofessional / disgraceful/ indoctrinating /pushing political activism. They are the ones who won't accept a range of styles.

If people choose not to share then great, if people choose to share then students aren't stupid and are more than capable of understanding different adults think different things

But is that the job of a teacher, to have their own personal political opinions understood by their pupils? What would be the point of that? Why would a teacher even want to do that?

But is that the job of a teacher, to have their own personal political opinions understood by their pupils? What would be the point of that? Why would a teacher even want to do that?

And here we go missing the point.

Because students ask and are interested, and if it's appropriate and relevant then I would I respond, and if it wasn't then I wouldn't.

It's really not that difficult to understand.

For someone who thinks I'm horrible to work with and don't accept a range of styles (despite repeatedly saying I think there's room for a range of professional and personal judgements within the standards), you're awfully closed minded.

Flaxmeadow you seem to think that teachers should put themselves through all kinds of mental contortions to avoid letting even a glimmer of who they really are and what they stand for come through. That sort of fakery isn't going to engage their students at all.

At the end of the day, teachers are human beings and especially towards the end of the school years, their students are rapidly becoming young adults. Those young adults aren't going to suck up their teacher's opinions and accept them as gospel anymore than they are going to do the same for their parents.

And in the younger age groups, their prime influence is going to be their parents, not their teachers, and issues around politics are readily reduced to debates around values (which should be taught) and morals rather than taking sides politically.

Because students ask and are interested, and if it's appropriate and relevant then I would I respond, and if it wasn't then I wouldn't.

But it's not your job to have your pupils "understand" your political opinions. It's inappropriate to make it about "understanding" you. They're there to receive an education, and in as much of an unbiased way as possible

you seem to think that teachers should put themselves through all kinds of mental contortions to avoid letting even a glimmer of who they really are and what they stand for come through. That sort of fakery isn't going to engage their students at all.

Why would a teacher want to share with their pupils "who they really are" politically? It's supposed to be a classroom, not a soapbox on Hyde Park Corner