AIBU to think that secondary school teachers should be apolitical in classroom and encourage debate

[vdbfamily]

DS17 and DD14 both came home today and seperately stated that they were surprised their teachers were allowed to be so anti Republican/Trump and that there was an assumption everyone agreed with them. FWIW neither of my kids like Trump but they felt uncomfortable with the fact that teachers were making derogatory comments about any idiots who voted for Trump and this was several teachers for both of them. WIBU to contact school and suggest it should be a place where students are encouraged to discuss pro's and cons of different parties and not get dictated to about such things! My daughter was saying that some of the kids who would not have known any different were then parroting the teachers views without really knowing what they were talking about.

Flaxmeadow debate and discussion are a part of education - especially in the humanities. You can't really do politics in maths or physics, but as soon as you move into history or biology, ethics and values form part of the learning. There are always parallels. You say 'pupils are there to receive an education', as if they are passive vessels having knowledge poured in. That's not how it works, nor is it how it should work.

DD1 is currently doing A level coursework relating to the start of WW1. The political parallels are pretty damn obvious. Debate, discussion and disagreement are inevitable, and teacher participation is a part of that. Forced neutrality isn't helpful - there's a place for opinion and disagreement. There's a range of political views in her class, all the way across the political spectrum. Everyone discusses and debates with mutual respect. I vastly prefer that to students being force fed bland neutrality.

Most of the people on this thread who claim to want 'neutrality' seem to think teaching is a hot-bed of leftie influence, with teachers all out to indoctrinate the next generation of lefties. I don't see that at all.

I remember a teacher explaining the two big parties in “simple terms” when I was in school. It was pretty obvious what her bias was although she stated she couldn’t show a bias.
One believes in low tax and no money spent on education and health.
One believes in high tax and spending money on education and health.
Slightly oversimplified.

I agree that debate and discussion are part of education, absolutely but why do pupils need to "understand" their teachers own political opinions?

They don't need to 'understand' them, but that doesn't mean they should never ever be expressed.

They don't need to 'understand' them, but that doesn't mean they should never ever be expressed.

But that's what previous posters have said. That children need to "understand" the teachers view. To understand who a teacher "really is" and "what they stand for"

Why is that even necessary?

Didyousaynutella
Exactly. People falsely claiming neutrality and being so confident in their neutrality (to the point where anyone else must be considered unprofessional) leaves them with a huge blind spot.

I'd suspect people who are willing to be reflective and acknowledge that professional judgement is required will probably be a lot more mindful of how they teach and how they facilitate debate and the language they use than those who claim they are apolitical/it's disgraceful to express a view / neutral / totally impartial.

But that's what previous posters have said. That children need to "understand" the teachers view.
I've said that it's fine for students to see thay a range of adults hold different views.

You're claiming it is wrong for teachers to express views and it's been falsely stated on this thread that to share personal views is unprofessional and against the standards. Then when I challenged the blatant lie about the standards, I essentially got accused of not being a teacher.

...I don't want teachers lecturing my grandchildren on their own personal political opinions.

history..

My grandchildren don't need to understand a history teachers own opinion on an histotical event. They need an education without bias. They need to be taught the facts, from widely accepted primary and secondary sources. They need to be presented with the evidence and allowed to make up their own minds. Their own opinions without bias from an adult

In the 1970s, as a child, I was taught about the trans atlantic slave trade (I've actually seen teachers now deny that this was taught back then, but that's another debate) . I was presented with the evidence of it. Both in text and in illustration. My teacher didnt have to give an opinion on how bad it was. The evidence spoke for itself

This is my point. As I said earlier, I had a good history teacher and i never ever knew his political leanings, not once. He never gave them. Even in such an emotive and upsetting subject. He never gave a political opinion, past or current, because it wasn't about him

I'm a teacher. I try very hard not to be political in lessons or to give away what I think about anything, but I do sometimes state the counter-view for the sake of balance. And occasionally as an educator I feel it is my role and responsibility to correct a way of thinking that is dangerous, erroneous or parroted from parents and accepted as fact. Yesterday two Muslim Year 8 boys told me that the President of France is racist towards Muslims. I asked them to explain why they thought that and they were a little sketchy on the detail. I then said that being part of a minority group was likely to be at least as challenging in France as it was here, but that at the last election the choices were between Macron and Marine Le Pen and that they would have liked her even less. I said I understood why they might feel their religion was under attack but encouraged them to think about the importance of freedom of speech too, and suggested they could view Macron's stance as pro-freedom rather than anti-islamic, but possibly rather tactless and disrespectful to law-abiding Muslims. We left it at that, but I didn't think I should allow the statement 'Macron is a racist' to go unexplored.

See we are here again with hyperbole about 'lecturing'.

We've had that expressing a view is activism, now it's lecturing. There's a real determination to continue presenting this debate as either:
A) unprofessional teacher lecturing their pupils and pushing their political activism in the classroom
Or
B) Professional teacher who claims to be neutral and so never says anything

It's all very emotive for someone who claims it's unreasonable to believe in people exercising professional judgement based on the topic, context, students, etc.

(I've said that it's fine for students to see thay a range of adults hold different views.*

But a teacher giving their opinion isn't giving a "range of views". They are giving their own view, and to a captive audience

Flaxmeadow if you can't see the difference between a teacher expressing an opinion as part of a debate and a teacher lecturing on their opinion, then there is really no point discussing anything with you.

Teaching has changed a lot. You mention grandchildren, which suggests your time at school was in the era of 'chalk and talk'. It doesn't work like that any more - the world has changed, teaching has changed.

@Flaxmeadow

...I don't want teachers lecturing my grandchildren on their own personal political opinions.

history..

My grandchildren don't need to understand a history teachers own opinion on an histotical event. They need an education without bias. They need to be taught the facts, from widely accepted primary and secondary sources. They need to be presented with the evidence and allowed to make up their own minds. Their own opinions without bias from an adult

In the 1970s, as a child, I was taught about the trans atlantic slave trade (I've actually seen teachers now deny that this was taught back then, but that's another debate) . I was presented with the evidence of it. Both in text and in illustration. My teacher didnt have to give an opinion on how bad it was. The evidence spoke for itself

This is my point. As I said earlier, I had a good history teacher and i never ever knew his political leanings, not once. He never gave them. Even in such an emotive and upsetting subject. He never gave a political opinion, past or current, because it wasn't about him

All of this

But a teacher giving their opinion isn't giving a "range of views". They are giving their own view, and to a captive audience

Someone sharing their view does not mean it is the only one shared. 🤦‍♀️

Common sense is going out the window now.

Flaxmeadow if you can't see the difference between a teacher expressing an opinion as part of a debate and a teacher lecturing on their opinion, then there is really no point discussing anything with you
Cross posted with this, but I totally agree.

Some of the most thought provoking discussions I've had have been with students, and some of the most idiotic ones I've had have been with adults. Students, in my experience, are a lot more open minded and interested in genuinely debating and challenging than many adults who seem to think their worldview is the only world view.

Lolasmiles that’s interesting about An Inspector Calls. Also interesting that a play by J B Priestly is on the syllabus because he’s not widely read nowadays even though he was a hugely popular and prolific author in his day.

Depends. I don't think it's right to call Trump's voter base idiots, but I'd agree with anyone who said he's not acted decently. We should have a basic standard of decent surely?

Someone sharing their view does not mean it is the only one shared

But it isn't just a "someone", it's a teacher in a position of authority, an adult in a position of power and privilege in front of a classroom full of malleable minds, children who are still forming their own political opinions .

One of the best moments of my teaching was a Friday afternoon lesson, when my Yr 7 group turned up I had the results of the 2010 election up on my board accidentaly as I had been looking at it during my lunch. I had stayed up late the night before waiting for the results and as a result I had read up on hung parliaments and how, why it happened and what it would mean. I am a Maths teacher so the numbers of it all intrigued me.

They came in and instantly started asking loads of questions, mainly about what was going to happen if one party didn't win.

3 months previous to the lesson, we had had a day with Yr 7 as tutor groups covering the PSHE topic of government - they were not engaged. That Friday afternoon they were asking intelligent, interested questions. I made it clear I would not answer who I voted for - it resorted to them trying to figure it out by the tops I had worn that week!

We also discussed why I wasn't going to share my voting decision with them.

However I do think for some students the chance for someone - not necessarily the teacher - to challenge views they have picked up from home may be a good thing - not hearing alternative views is a very narrow way of life. It does need to be managed well though.

@LolaSmiles

I expect my children's teachers to be on the side of truth, facts, reality and morality.

That would always put them on the other side of things from soon to be ex-President Trump.

And that's as it should be.

Not always. There's a lot of debate that could be had about the Republican platform the he signed up for and it would be wrong for a teacher to dismiss that just because they don't agree with it.

The crucial difference is:
'Personally I disagree with those policies / something he did'
Vs
'Trump is always wrong. Fact.'

America didn't vote to get rid of Republicans.

Just Trump.

I agree. I’ve sat through numerous assemblies about Trump vs Obama, or about Blackfish and Sea World. There’s never a balanced argument or two sides. Sometimes it feels like brainwashing. But not all teachers are like this.

I like to wear my Sea World Spirit Jerseys into school on training days and piss our deputy head off.

I think it depends on the age of the child tbh. I think teachers should refrain from expressing their personal opinions to very young children, but the OP said that her kids were 14 and 17 - old enough to have developed good critical thinking skills and to form their own opinions in my view.

As a teacher I approach British politics in a completely unbiased way - because it's the right thing to do and because I don't want to inadvertently insult the politics a pupil is exposed to at home.

But I think I would be bolder when discussing politics elsewhere in the world - nobody's parents voted for Trump or were able to support him in any meaningful way.

is it a big ego trip having a captive audience to lecture to, a power thing

God, there are some Mumsnetters who really, really despise teachers...

I've noticed this reference to power over and over again on various threads about teaching. I always think it says more about the poster themself than it does about teachers. It also shows, as Lola has been saying, how very disconnected some posters are from education today.

I've literally never stood in a classroom and thought "All these kids! Look how POWERFUL I am!" 😂

I completely agree with you! I'm a university lecturer and we have to be really careful about what we say, otherwise it could mean disciplinary action. We are there to teach, not influence political opinions by abusing our power.

Were not allowed to promote a political party. We are however allowed to give facts. If the facts happen to point to Trump/Tories/other being ba people based on social morality and the wellbeing of the majority of people, then that's not our fault...