AIBU to think that secondary school teachers should be apolitical in classroom and encourage debate

[vdbfamily]

DS17 and DD14 both came home today and seperately stated that they were surprised their teachers were allowed to be so anti Republican/Trump and that there was an assumption everyone agreed with them. FWIW neither of my kids like Trump but they felt uncomfortable with the fact that teachers were making derogatory comments about any idiots who voted for Trump and this was several teachers for both of them. WIBU to contact school and suggest it should be a place where students are encouraged to discuss pro's and cons of different parties and not get dictated to about such things! My daughter was saying that some of the kids who would not have known any different were then parroting the teachers views without really knowing what they were talking about.

Goose....I totally agree that it could be an age thing and seems much more prevalent today but obviously can only compare my school experience with my children's.

Those confused by my ' fundie' comment I just wanted to explain as I have 2 threads I am on that a user is trying to invalidate what I say because I am a fundie ( apparently referring to fact that I am a Christian who believes in Intelligent design and am also pro life) This user who uses random letters for user name has obviously followed me to this thread and said something that MN deleted before I saw it, but under another random name has now made strange claims about my children!! Sorry to derail my own thread but I did not want people perplexing about my fundie comment. I keep forgetting the fact that I am not actually entied to an opinion if I hold certain Christian views. I will try and put myself back in my box and keep my mouth shut. Sorry to derail myself

I totally agree that it could be an age thing and seems much more prevalent today but obviously can only compare my school experience with my children's
I don't see much difference between my school days and now as a teacher.
As a student some of my teachers shared and others didn't. It didn't change our views of them because they were respectful and promoted engaging debates.

Staff who draw their own lines (either refraining from discussing or sharing their views at appropriate times) are liked and respected. Students learn from them. There is room for different styles and these staff don't judge each other for drawing different lines because we are all mindful of our professional responsibilities. Staff in this category acknowledge the importance of valuing professional judgement.

Occasionally some staff overstep the mark and that loses student respect if done too much.

Some staff claim to be impartial and neutral but their view is evident through the language they use, the way they handle discussions. These staff have a huge blind spot because they genuinely think they're neutral.

Yes teachers should be apolitical. Stop wearing poppies and forcing nationalism on everyone. Stop celebrating the royal family. Both of these things are highly political.

I have been thinking a bit more about this and I think one of the teachers I learnt most from was one who always played devils advocate. Whatever one of us said, he would argue the opposite very convincingly. It made me realise that with most things they can be very compelling arguments for opposing viewpoints. This is quite an important lesson in life and encourages you to explore what others think and try and understand why they do. I suppose this is the difference between saying all Trump supporters are idiots and exploring the reasons why someone as seemingly odious as Trump can garner support of so many millions of people. This is increasingly important in the age of social media where we can be presented with snippets which might not show the whole picture, just what the presenter wants you to think. My children will often quote some news to me that they have read on social media and I will always fact check it for them and often what they have read and assumed will be a small fraction of the truth.

I have been thinking a bit more about this and I think one of the teachers I learnt most from was one who always played devils advocate. Whatever one of us said, he would argue the opposite very convincingly. It made me realise that with most things they can be very compelling arguments for opposing viewpoints
Same here.
Whether my teachers had told us their personal views didn't stop them doing that though.

This is what people seem to be deliberately ignoring: sharing views appropriately does not mean someone doesn't teach effective debate, it doesn't mean they don't use appropriate questioning skills, it doesn't mean they can't play devil's advocate.

Trying to pretend it's either say nothing personal ever or go on a political rally in the classroom does a disservice to the much more nuanced reality of being in a classroom.

I think it's appalling that you're being stalked, OP.

I also have no issue with advancing the pro-life view in the classroom, as long as the speakers don't present the lies that are often promoted (that women regret their abortions, that women who have abortions are more likely to have mental health issues, that abortion is a greater health risk than normal pregnancy and delivery). If everyone is honest and factual, that leaves the field clear for a fair debate on the ethics.

fundie ( apparently referring to fact that I am a Christian who believes in Intelligent design and am also pro life)

You forgot homophobic and anti-equal marriage.

If the teacher contradicts this it's good, especially if god forbid one of your kids turns out to be gay.

Do you also oppose biology teachers teaching about evolution because your children don't believe in it?

trhfxtbtht A long time ago in my biology A-level class we were learning evolution and a girl told the teacher she didn't believe in it. To which he replied 'You don't have to believe it, you just have to reproduce it in the exam'.

OP's children can choose whether to give scientifically or doctrinally correct answers when the time comes. (I know which I would choose; ID is a faith position, not a science position).

Teaching children that homosexuality is wrong is something I have a real issue with - I know several teens who are gay who come from these very 'Christian' homes - they do not feel safe to be themselves at home. The're friends with my younger DC and my home is a safe space for them. These parents are storing up a lot of issues for their children.

25trhfxbtht
You really do not know me so I would really appreciate you desist with trying to tell everyone who I am. If my child were gay I would love them just the same. If they married a same sex partner, I would love and welcome them into my family. My husband s cousin and his husband are welcomed to stay with us. My favourite cousin is gay. I am not sure where you are going with this. I am a Christian and yes, I believe the Bible teaches that God intended marriage to be a binding contract between a man and woman to create a stable environment for any children they produce. What I also believe is that adults have a right to decide how to live their lives without judgement from me and I have been encouraged to love. Just love. Not sit in judgement . However, this does not mean I am not allowed to express an opinion if asked and I assume somewhere in my years of Mumsnet I must have said something that offended you.
Honestly, in real life, I am a mediator and peacemaker. I encourage my children to think for themselves and consider all sides to an argument. I am thankful for their education and actually think that if they get one side from us and another from school ( and believe it or not, we do not disagree on much) then they get to hear both sides and think it through. I also encourage them to know that their opinions on things are likely to be fluid over their lifetime which is healthy and allows for life long learning. I also strongly discouraging them ever thinking that they are right and everyone else is wrong.
It would be nice now if we could just return to the thread and you desist with the character assassination. Or you could start a new thread on whatever thing it is that is most irritating you about me!

OP, I'm sorry if you feel I included you in those parents who make their gay children feel unsafe. I don't. You and I disagree vehemently on the issue of abortion, but your position comes from your faith and I can respect it. I have problems with people who call themselves Christians and then go on to sit in judgement of their fellow human beings - that's clearly not you.

thank you pointy. I actually agreed with your response and did not feel condemned by it. I am just objecting to being trolled by someone who does not know me.

You have made it clear on here before that you think gay people should not be able to get married and should stay celibate there whole lives. Between that and you passing your anti-science views on to you kids, I just think it's good that they might hear views from teachers that counter that indoctrination that's all.

32trhfxbtht

It seems to be hard for you to understand that I can believe something because of my faith, which I hold myself accountable to, but do not expect others to follow. I remained celibate to age of 33 when I married my husband. Two of my best friends, also Christians, decided to live with their partners first. Do I judge them for that? No, because I am only responsible for my actions. I force my opinions on no one and I am respectful to all . So no, I do not want to stop Same sex couples getting married, but had I been same sex attracted or not met a partner, I personally would have remained celibate. I am not sure why I am not allowed to hold that opinion. It is rather like abortion. If a friend of mine choose to have one, I would respect and support her with that, but that does not stop me thinking an unborn child is a life and not just a clump of cells. I think such language is 'othering' to make people care less and I would prefer to fight for there being less need for abortion then to say it is no different to having an appendix out. I repeat that this would not stop me caring for someone who felt it was their only option.

Teacher here: I recently left a school because we were told to be neutral/balanced. We had to give homophobic and misogynistic comments the time of day because we had to allow both sides of every argument. Teachers ranting is unprofessional but insisting on "neutrality" is a mistake - because who is deciding on what is neutral/centre ground?

I think I may have changed my opinion slightly as a result of this thread. But I still think the job of a teacher is to encourage debate and see why there may be more than one valid opinion on a subject and people can agree to disagree. There are to many people who exist in echo chambers of their own views and it is not healthy. If kids learn this at school and learn to engage in respectful debate, the world would be a better place. Teachers should be allowed to express a view if asked directly but should not use the classroom as a place to try and influence a particular political view.

@trhfxbtht

fundie ( apparently referring to fact that I am a Christian who believes in Intelligent design and am also pro life)

You forgot homophobic and anti-equal marriage.

If the teacher contradicts this it's good, especially if god forbid one of your kids turns out to be gay.

Do you also oppose biology teachers teaching about evolution because your children don't believe in it?

You know, it's a very interesting thing that as society has become more religiously and ethnically diverse, you have a much greater variety of views among the families whose children go to schools, which are supposedly secular. Secularism, though many people seem to miss it, is mainly about protecting private belief.

That doesn't mean that a science class doesn't teach about evolution, or even that a class on politics doesn't teach about what the marriage laws are and how they came to be that way. What it does mean is that they don't tell children what they or their families ought to think about those things, or try and influence them in some sort of social engineering attemt.

From a teaching practice perspective, one of the things that most influenced my thinking on questions like these is a something I read by the head of a school writing about 100 years ago.

What she said was that students to learn are developing a relationship with the objects around them. Be it the natural world, political systems, ideas, books. It's important these things be alive to the students and the teacher can help with that, particularly by choosing the right kinds of books.
However - what the teacher has to beware of is stepping between the student and the material, so they themselves become the focus, their ideas, their arguments. It places a barrier between the mind of the student and the idea or object, and in a sense interferes with their right to come to determinations on their own, over time, through observation and contemplation.

The difficulty for teachers and parents in allowing this is twofold. One is that it's flattering to the ego to be the object of interest to the student in that way and to shape them - indeed students often love teachers like that. The other is lack of trust - fear that the student will not come to the "right" conclusion.

She saw this as a faith issue, as she was operating within a Christian context, lack of faith in the minds of the students and also lack of faith in teh ability of God to form a relationship with them.

But I see much the same thing with people who consider themselves non-religious around social justice issues. There is a lot of fear that if you don't make sure students have the right view, they may come to the wrong conclusions, be it about the Trump presidency or anything else. So they are very careful to avoid things like asking why people (and increasingly minority groups!) voted for Trump rather than the other options. It's even evident in the way teaching is presented to the students.

You highlighted the concern with teachers sharing their political views. It's not the actual sharing that is the problem, it's when it is shared with a belief that their opinion is fact and won't remain neutral of their opinion of a pupils who thinks differently.

Sadly, this thread has highlighted that some teachers do consider their position as facts.

Where do you draw the line between opinion and fact Evolution is true? It's okay to be gay? Racism is wrong?

If you believe that homosexuality is a sin you are homophobic. If you teach that to your children you are passing on homophobia.

To be fair I discussed this with some of my groups. On a human level it's hard to argue that he's anything other than despicable. I did however point out to them that his relationship with Boris would have been beneficial to us as we go into Brexit and that we are now heading for some very uncertain times.

Although they're 'rethinking' it, which is something at least.

YANBU.

I totally agree op, I also do not personally attack a person i debate the points and I would never ever make personal comments to students if I was a teacher and I expect teachers to be the same