so we are now arresting people NOW Shocking

[Meadow1203]

I thought this was wind up but sadly it is true. A 73 year old retired nurse has been arrested and put in handcuffs because she took her own mother out of a care home. She has not had proper contact for 9 months and her poor 97 year old mum was ailing, she wanted to bring her home to care for her. Wow just wow how have we come to this.

It's a safeguarding issue. The woman has demantia and can't consent to being removed. The home...possibly social services obviously felt it wasn't in her best interest to be moved. And they probably have a point, how is her 73yo dd going to provide 24hr care on her own for her mother?

Obviously the lack of visiting is very sad but again understandable.

@Motherofthreequeens

Miss Ashton said her family had 'tried to go through all the official channels' by writing to MPs and Public Health England but nothing had been done

She claimed that, after her grandmother was admitted to hospital during the first lockdown, relatives requested that she did not go back to the care home but she was neverthless discharged back to the home

She did try and go through the ‘proper channels’

This elderly woman is a human being, she would have not wanted to spend the last part of her life in rapid decline separated from a family that love her very much. She probably won’t last the winter. She should be with her family.

But have they said they'd put together a care plan, got the proper equipment in place. Got a time sheet to make sure someone was around 24hrs a day? Or did they just say they wanted her to live with them and they'll look after her because her daughters a 73yr old retired nurse? People who need care aren't discharged from hospital until they have proper care in place. If the family had actually got things in place to be able to provide proper care then they would have been able to, as it stood, the hospital needed their bed back and there was an appropriate place to discharge her to where she would be getting proper care.

Yes this woman is a human being, who didn't give power of attorney over her healthcare to her daughter, she has a right to proper care, not to be stolen from a care home so her family can play with her for a day like a toy and give her back stressed out, upset, probably without having had any of her medication. I dont even want to think about if they managed to get her on a toilet and how humiliating that might have been, or if she was left to sit in her own mess.

That was to Patricia Perch, btw.

Both mil and fil had dementia, lasting for some years. Dh and I could write a book on the journey. When dh sees stuff about not caring about parents if they’re in a home, or “living with dementia” as if it’s a slight physical disability he gets the rage. People who have not experienced it have no idea. It’s not Captain Tom, fgs, it’s someone who is doubly incontinent, has no notion of the 24-hour clock, who needs a hoist, who has to be fed mushy food, and, far worse, who can be violent and doesn’t even know their own name, let alone who their children or spouse are.

@JacobReesMogadishu

It's a safeguarding issue. The woman has demantia and can't consent to being removed. The home...possibly social services obviously felt it wasn't in her best interest to be moved. And they probably have a point, how is her 73yo dd going to provide 24hr care on her own for her mother?

Obviously the lack of visiting is very sad but again understandable.

The daughter doesn't appear to have had any discussions, with anybody, about wanting to take her mother home with her.

Nobody has said the mother cannot go home. Just that she can't be kidnapped from the care home.

@VinylDetective

The professionals know what is best for the care of this lady, not the family who are only thinking with emotion

I find it incredibly dangerous that people think this way. Blind belief in institutions is a very, very slippery slope.

"The professionals" in this case haven't even been consulted. The mother just barged in to a protected area, shoved a care worker, and manhandled her mother into her car.

'If the daughter wanted to care for her mother at home, then why had she made no effort? No Care Plan meetings, not discussed it with the lady's GP, the psyche, social services, etc. Nothing'

Well this alleged 'retired nurse' clearly thought she knew best and there wasn't any need for multidisciplinary team discussion of needs and involvement or even take home medication. It is understandable of course to want to have our family with us but this isn't the way to do it.

@IrmaFayLear

That was to Patricia Perch, btw.

Both mil and fil had dementia, lasting for some years. Dh and I could write a book on the journey. When dh sees stuff about not caring about parents if they’re in a home, or “living with dementia” as if it’s a slight physical disability he gets the rage. People who have not experienced it have no idea. It’s not Captain Tom, fgs, it’s someone who is doubly incontinent, has no notion of the 24-hour clock, who needs a hoist, who has to be fed mushy food, and, far worse, who can be violent and doesn’t even know their own name, let alone who their children or spouse are.

That depends what stage of dementia they are at, it doesn't sound like the woman in question was that far advanced.

People saying ‘care homes shouldn’t be the ones making the decisions because they just want the money’. Care homes are NOT the ones making decisions. The decision to discharge her back to her care home from hospital will have been taken by the adult social care team.

If the family wanted her home then the home would have needed to be assessed as suitable with appropriate 24hr care to meet the ladies needs. If they failed to show they could provide that then Social Services will have recommended that she return to her care home which has been assessed as being the most appropriate place to meet her care needs.

The care home are just fulfilling/delivering the care as outlined in this ladies care plan.

If the family wanted her home they needed to speak to the adult social care team, show them what they had put in place to be able to care for the lady at home, both in the form of actual people to provide the care (because one person cannot do it) and physically, equipment wise etc.

Once satisfied that the lady can be safely and appropriately cared for from home then a discharge date would be agreed and she’d be home.

I don’t believe for a second that a retired nurse wouldn’t know this. I think it’s far more likely that they were NOT able to show they could care for her appropriately at home when she was discharged from hospital, hence she went back to the care home, and now because they didn’t get their way then they are being all dramatic and trying to garner sumptuary with the public via the press.

There is an established procedure to do this, which his in place to protect vulnerable adults, and also to prevent people from taking on more care responsibilities than they can cope with and abuse and neglect occurring when they eventually break down/give up/can’t continue.

This family are just stamping their feet and shouting and wailing when they could be just getting on with going through the procedure!

@GetOffYourHighHorse

'If the daughter wanted to care for her mother at home, then why had she made no effort? No Care Plan meetings, not discussed it with the lady's GP, the psyche, social services, etc. Nothing'

Well this alleged 'retired nurse' clearly thought she knew best and there wasn't any need for multidisciplinary team discussion of needs and involvement or even take home medication. It is understandable of course to want to have our family with us but this isn't the way to do it.

Oh but we forgot, they approached their MP and PHE

Well we put both POA's in place for my mum, no solicitor involved for the finance one as she was a council house tenant and only had one small bank account. The health one was simple. She went to the GP with me when she was diagnosed with Alzheimer's. I explained to the GP that we needed a POA for health and he spoke to her, separately from me, signed to agree that she had full capacity and we sent off the form. Mum's simply said that my sister and I had full range power over where she lived and expressed her wishes as regards how close to us she would like to live, if given the choice.

And @MoodieMare, I was always in awe of the people who looked after mum for the two years before her death earlier this year. Mum had more than one poo accident and, on the first occasion, we were 'caught' trying to clean her up by a member of the team. She told us to sit down - it was their job, hit the buzzer and another person came to help. They got mum out of her clothes, cleaned up, showered and put into clean clothes so quickly. We were making a right mess of everything - they did it all so smoothly and with nothing but kindness. Then they sat her down, got her a cup of tea and gave her a cuddle.

We used to go in on Christmas Day and, as you said, there would be a singalong going on, presents for everyone and, as usual, the problems trying to get everyone to the dinner table for a lovely meal. There were some residents who always decided to go walkabout around the home when it was dinner time so they had to be rounded up. Two people used wheelchairs, others on frames. All escorted, seated, food brought and, in some cases, help given with feeding. No family felt they were in the way, even though it was obvious that things had to be done around them.

Mum's home was her home and I'd have been extremely annoyed if someone had barged into her home and put her in danger of Covid. Whilst I have every sympathy with the family concerned, their mother isn't the only one living there and the staff have a duty of care to everyone in their charge. Apparently the older woman pushed past the carer with a bunch of flowers saying she was seeing her mum. No thought that the other x many residents would be exposed to anything she was carrying. It's fine if she's happy to give her mother Covid, it's not OK to expose everyone else to it just because she's finally decided she can look after her mum - pity she didn't do that a lot earlier in her mother's life. I have to wonder if the POA for finance is now throwing up that the finances are slipping a bit...

We don't know anything about the behind the scenes circumstances.
This comment isn't specific fir this incident but family aren't necessarily the best people or most suitable place for vulnerable adults and children to be.

@Rinoachicken

People saying ‘care homes shouldn’t be the ones making the decisions because they just want the money’. Care homes are NOT the ones making decisions. The decision to discharge her back to her care home from hospital will have been taken by the adult social care team.

If the family wanted her home then the home would have needed to be assessed as suitable with appropriate 24hr care to meet the ladies needs. If they failed to show they could provide that then Social Services will have recommended that she return to her care home which has been assessed as being the most appropriate place to meet her care needs.

The care home are just fulfilling/delivering the care as outlined in this ladies care plan.

If the family wanted her home they needed to speak to the adult social care team, show them what they had put in place to be able to care for the lady at home, both in the form of actual people to provide the care (because one person cannot do it) and physically, equipment wise etc.

Once satisfied that the lady can be safely and appropriately cared for from home then a discharge date would be agreed and she’d be home.

I don’t believe for a second that a retired nurse wouldn’t know this. I think it’s far more likely that they were NOT able to show they could care for her appropriately at home when she was discharged from hospital, hence she went back to the care home, and now because they didn’t get their way then they are being all dramatic and trying to garner sumptuary with the public via the press.

There is an established procedure to do this, which his in place to protect vulnerable adults, and also to prevent people from taking on more care responsibilities than they can cope with and abuse and neglect occurring when they eventually break down/give up/can’t continue.

This family are just stamping their feet and shouting and wailing when they could be just getting on with going through the procedure!

I think you have put your finger on the matter there.

But what about the feels and the mean horrible system???

Allowing a care home to decide what's best for an old person sounds like an obvious conflict of interest: they have a clear financial incentive in keeping the person in and cashing in the care home fees.

Which is why there is a system in place whereby the care home doesn't get the last word. Independent people such as doctors and social workers need to be involved. In the final analysis, there is a right for the whole thing to be reviewed by the very independent Court of Protection.

Surely an independent third-party would be more suitable?

And that's what we have in place, though realistically we should only need it if these issues can't be resolved by sensible discussion.

My DF always said he would rather have had a pillow put over his face than stay in a care home. I tend to agree with him.

Honestly, most of the people commenting that are supporting the daughter's behaviour seem to have no understanding of the actual processes involved.

If a care worker tried to stop me taking mu dad out of his home if I wanted to take him I would have shoved her too. So you advocate committing assault on someone who had a legal obligation to do their job?

Some of these "care" homes and facilities are certainly not the place for vulnerable adults or children either. There are cases where special needs children have been locked in a room with no physical contact allowed and no TV, books or toys. Their families have seen their mental decline in these places (understandably in those conditions, like being in a top security prison) and know that they can't do any worse in caring for them, yet have been prevented from doing so.

@derxa

My DF always said he would rather have had a pillow put over his face than stay in a care home. I tend to agree with him.

That is MASSIVELY insulting to the people who work in care homes.

My relations are looked after by wonderful people and are much more happy and settled than they were when they were struggling with their health and dementia in the community.

I got my grandmother out of a nursing home. She had dementia and lacked capacity and was actually screaming at me not to take her out the home the day I took her!

Difference is I followed the process, there were numerous meetings with social services, etc to get to that point.

@PatriciaPerch

Don't you wonder why this daughter only has a Power Of Attorney for her mother's financial affairs, but not her health and care?

because it is expensive and it is difficult to obtain without appointing a specialist lawyer

I know what dols is too and I know best interests meetings just aren't happening because of covid atm. I imagine a nurse would never place her Mother into a home that aren't transparent and didn't have an open visiting policy. It's alarming to lots of relatives and it really isn't a stretch of the imagination to figure out why

I am in Scotland so it might be different, but if they managed to get a financial Poa drawn up I am very surprised that the health and welfare wasn't considered at the same time - something that is suggested by lawyers here.

'Honestly, most of the people commenting that are supporting the daughter's behaviour seem to have no understanding of the actual processes involved.'

Yes some on this thread seem to think it's just a glorified babysitting service for relatives to dip in and out of as they so wish.

I feel so sorry for the staff who obviously can't comment publicly on this but did the right thing.

My relations are looked after by wonderful people and are much more happy and settled than they were when they were struggling with their health and dementia in the community. I'm sure they were but my dad was enabled to live at home because he had an army of friends who helped him. He didn't have dementia though. It's not about whether care staff are angels or not. It's about quality of life.

I am in Scotland so it might be different, but if they managed to get a financial Poa drawn up I am very surprised that the health and welfare wasn't considered at the same time - something that is suggested by lawyers here. Same here.

Is she a loving daughter? How do you know? What do you know about her relationship with her mother? How well does she deal with her mother's dementia? Does the mother recognise her? How often did she visit pre-covid?

A friend's ex used to be involved with Fathers For Justice. He was sometimes with them instead of having his supervised visits with their children. His 'story' was online. It bore little resemblance to the truth. It was true he hadn't recently seen his other children (from his other ex's but he'd seen my friend's children), he could have easily gained supervised then unsupervised access to his other children legally. He sees his campaigning as more important.

He wanted the right to see his children when he wanted on his terms and conditions. Despite showing little interest in his children or making any financial contribution - he wanted the power to make all the parental decisions (or fight anyone on decisions they'd made in his absence - he liked to fight and was aggressive - likely the reason why all his relationships failed). His mother had her grandchildren every week for a few hours pre-covid. Both her and probably the mothers of his other children would have allowed him to see them after he finished work - the opportunity was there but he didn't take it. He only showed interest in order to criticise.

My friend is portrayed online as a hideous woman that denies a loving father his relationship with his children (he fails to mention his other children). The reality is completely different and takes very little research to uncover.

It isn't just old people being locked away from their families, my daughter has been too and she is only 20 and I imagine many other families are in the same position, something we never would have agreed to when looking at placements.

If you were looking at placements as opposed to having your daughter at home, I suspect you wouldn't have a choice. The reality is that every care placement has to put stringent visiting restrictions in place because they are looking after a number of very vulnerable people. So if you had looked for a placement which could tell you that they will never restrict visiting in the event of a pandemic, you wouldn't have found one.