If you WFH what time should you start work?

[EatPrayYoga]

If official hours are 9-5, is it a problem if you are not logged on by 9 every day?

I'm a team manager and one person on the team consistently logs on after 9 am. I know because our system shows a green or other colour next to everyone's names in an email so if I email the team I can see who is online and who isn't.

I usually send an email in a morning to confirm any things to be aware of for that day including who is not working that day and who is covering their work.

He usually logs on at about 9.05 but I'm not sure whether to mention this as he is only slightly late. He is in a junior role but wants to progress. There are other people in the same role who start work earlier than 9 to get things done so he stands out as doing less though I can't say who does more or less work in a day as their work is delegated by different members of the team.

I also realise we are in difficult times. He lives with parents and has no children or pets but I believe there are other adult siblings do not sure how easy or difficult the WFH circumstances are.

IABU to be unimpressed?

@FruitLoopyLoo I agree. However I would say that it’s borderline acceptable to expect fee earning staff to work until about 6.30/7 as standard. You’ll never see core hours in a contract that say anything later than 5.30 though.

The system is massively exploited, I agree, and the culprits are the partners who let clients impose unreasonable deadlines on them but don’t plan adequately to ensure that the work can be done without evening and weekend working. Why? Because. Often that evening and weekend working is done by their juniors, not them. But they argue that they “did their time” when they were young and the rewards of partnership are their payment for that time. There is some logic in that.

I think you’re doing him a disservice not being clearer. Something like

‘I know you want a training contract. I need you to understand right now you aren’t competitive for that. Your work is not at the required standard and we expect those applying to already be excelling in their role and going above and beyond. You are having performance issues at the paralegal level and if these continue without improvement we may have to consider if you are a good fit here at all (this bit only if it’s true. If he’s ok to stay in that role at his current performance level don’t say this bit). By the next time we meet in four weeks time I need to see you consistently logged in and available for work by 9am at the latest. This is a cultural requirement at this company. I also need your work to improve by ... (Be specific and make these goals measurable).’

Right now you’re having meetings but you aren’t making it clear this is a big deal. He needs to understand he’s not meeting the basic requirements for his current role and he absolutely won’t be getting a promotion if things don’t improve dramatically.

[quote CheetasOnFajitas]@FruitLoopyLoo I agree. However I would say that it’s borderline acceptable to expect fee earning staff to work until about 6.30/7 as standard. You’ll never see core hours in a contract that say anything later than 5.30 though.

The system is massively exploited, I agree, and the culprits are the partners who let clients impose unreasonable deadlines on them but don’t plan adequately to ensure that the work can be done without evening and weekend working. Why? Because. Often that evening and weekend working is done by their juniors, not them. But they argue that they “did their time” when they were young and the rewards of partnership are their payment for that time. There is some logic in that.[/quote]
I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. I really don't think it is acceptable to expect people to work 2 hours over their 'core hours' every single day for no extra pay, which there usually isn't. Especially when it's not just those two hours, most of the time people have to commute quite a while to get to these larger firms. You could be getting home at 8pm every day and I don't see how that can possibly make for a good work life balance. Sometimes acceptable yes, every day or 'as standard', no I don't agree.

And it's also not been my experience that working hard = reward in law firms. It's always seemed to me to be a very much 'if your face fits' kind of environment. Granted there will obviously be those at the top who have done their time so to speak and who have and do continue to put in the work, but you also get a lot of people excelling because they know the right people, are pally with the right people.

Where I worked last, there were quite a few top management who wouldn't have the first clue about anything legal, absolutely useless if you needed their help with an actual legal matter, were terrible fee earners themselves years before who had consistent complaints etc.. but they liked to party and get drunk take drugs with the right people 🤷 coming in at 11pm in their joggers, hungover from 'networking', feet up on the desk, barely lifting a finger. It certainly wasn't uncommon and it does breed huge resentment when you have others who work their arses off are 100x the better lawyer and would make a great and fair manager.

So it doesn't surprise me that often these places have high staff turn over, because people get fed up of it.

It's a very cliquey business in my personal experience.

That was longer than I wanted it to be. Basically I've never found law to be a 'if you work hard, you'll be rewarded for it' type of business.

@FruitLoopyLoo I have some sympathy for your view but, once again, the longer hours are not expected “for no extra pay”. They are factored into the salary offered.

As for the lazy senior guys who were no good at the law, they will have been bringing work in (to farm out to junior staff who actually knew the law.) Personally I can’t fathom why clients would give work to people like that but it happens a lot. Usually because the relationships have developed over years of drinking and socialising. It’s wrong but it’s a fact. And there is no point having a load of great lawyers in a firm if they have no work to do. The partners would have targets to meet and were probably adequately meeting them because they’d get credit for all the fees earned by their teams. Clients usually want the actual work done by juniors, not partners, because the hourly rates are cheaper. In most industries the sales force and those who make the product are totally separate, it’s actually quite weird in law that the roles are not officially separated.

They are factored into the salary offered

You'd like to think so and it makes it sound like all fee earning staff are on a great salary. In reality, unless you are high up, I've never found the salary offered to be any better than a lot of standard 9-5 jobs to account for the additional hours and stress.

On average, where I worked I can't speak for all obviously, most fee earners were on less than 30k, some a lot less, myself included.

I do understand the bringing in work point, but it doesn't instill much morale in your employees when you see idiots like that getting rewarded whilst you slog away in the office for hours, weekends, holidays and so on. My point was that it isn't as simple as 'do your time and you'll be rewarded'. Lots of people do their time, get fed up and give up because they never do get rewarded for it. That's what happens when expectations like this become 'standard', no one is ever seen as going above and beyond anymore because it's just expected regardless.

Bringing in new business/clients is usually (very) hard work. Stressful, skilled (industry or prospect knowledge for example) and possibly with a sales cycle that can take up to 18 months in many industries. And fall through at the last minute for an array of reasons.

930-530, really? my office has all staff (including support/PAs etc) on 9-6pm.

@Kseniya

! It is worth making comments - the rules are the same for everyone. in my company, we wrote explanatory notes even 1 minute late - this disciplines, and leads to discipline in everything - not only in the time of arrival. this is how responsibility is developed, we had it - 3 delays - dismissal. yes, I didn't even want to explain myself 1 minute late - that's why you always come a little in advance

I’d like to see how that one goes at an employment tribunal.

I worked well over my salaried hours for 17 years. I am currently recovering from my second nervous breakdown.

Forgot to add that my managers can’t wait to get me back to work, so that I can start working towards my third breakdown...

You say there are other team members logging in before 9, do you address this with them? otherwise it is a bit hypocritical and one sided, if you don't tell the other ones they don't need to log in before 9 , or you don't give them special recognition.

Unless you work somewhere with strict service hours - thinking something like a contact centre. I think measuring people via time is very old fashioned! I look after large (300+), global teams and as long as commitments are being met, meetings attended and output is of expected quality, I do not have the time or desire to be a clock watcher!

I know my teams have a range of personal commitments and circumstances that we are all working around in is wfh situation, which requires some give and take. Sometimes people will do 10 hours in a day, but another only 6!

I would expect laptop booted, coffee made and ready to go by 9am at the latest, but I am a slavedriver.

I would not bother. I have seen the green light on M. Office and I think it just means he is or isn't on email/office. He may actually be on the computer just not on email. He may be doing some other paperwork. Even if he does start 5 mins late he may have a short lunch break. There may be other members of staff who log on and do something else or have 10 tea breaks. It's not worth the breakdown of a working relationship.

Yes I am thinking it is a lack of confidence and I think I will speak to him about training contracts.

jnsponsor those who log on early and go the extra mile are the ones who will probably get the training contracts and qualify as solicitors on a £50K salary at our firm.

The fact is we do have to work over our hours in this business. We work to deadlines and client needs and if something needs to be done, as PP said, we cannot say "I'm logging off as it's 5" or even insist on starting not a moment before 9. I won't be speaking to those who log on early because they are doing what most people in the team do and what I did as a paralegal and trainee.

I do speak to them if it seems people are v busy eg if chargeable hours a day are low.

This individual's chargeable hours are slightly on the low side.

TBH I don't think the issue is the five minutes in the morning. I think it's slight frustration with him not really doing more even though I know he wants a training contract and that there are other people who are doing lots to be recognised.

His mentor discusses it with him but has said he has taken a slight step back as our firm's mentor guidelines say the mentee should set the agenda and set meetings. The mentor said they were setting up meetings but then suggested to him that he set them up when he wants, any time, and he hasn't bothered to do so.

@QueenPaws that sounds like a prison.

OMG it’s my boss! They’ve come on here to get validation about ‘code watching’
Leave that person alone five minutes is nothing, working from home under the current circumstances.

I’m always suspicious of anyone logging on early (I never check up on my team - they are trusted and not micro managed) - they probably log on early and then go away and have their breakfast. Same with people sending emails out of normal hours - they just prepare them earlier and press send late to try and look as if they are working late.

@Kseniya

! It is worth making comments - the rules are the same for everyone. in my company, we wrote explanatory notes even 1 minute late - this disciplines, and leads to discipline in everything - not only in the time of arrival. this is how responsibility is developed, we had it - 3 delays - dismissal. yes, I didn't even want to explain myself 1 minute late - that's why you always come a little in advance

Sounds horrendous

I am often late - sometimes a minute or so, sometimes up to half an hour. I have a degree of flexibility though as sometimes I’m on from 8am, sometimes I work till 6. I also don’t have set lunch times or breaks so often just don’t have one.

Having said that - we use Outlook and Skype and sometimes it says I’m yellow or ‘presence unknown’ (I think). I might have just been static for a while, reading something, making notes, on a phone call that doesn’t require computer. So be prepared for an ‘excuse’ like that - although YANBU, he should be logged on ready to start at 9am. If it is consistently taking ages to log on then he needs to raise with your IT help desk and sort it.

YANBU.

Having read your subsequent replies, this is not the only area of concern so I think a informal zoom meeting is in order.

Start by asking how he is in himself, how he enjoys his role and if he has any areas of concern. You can then give him a feedback sandwich: positive comment, then address the negative, then finish on a positive and offer support as required.

All the people on here telling you YABU would display similar behaviour (and probably do) givem the chance and would think their management was being unreasonable if they were pulled up: it's not unreasonable.

You are paying him to work and unless there is an agreement of flexitime in place he needs to be logged on and ready to work at 9am on the dot. He also needs to improve the quality of his work and attend all meetings.

5 minutes per day is 100 minutes of work pm he's being paid for so he needs to buck up, particularly if he wants a promotion but 1st check there are no complications at home.

@cherish123 not really. If you're stuck in traffic or you're leaving the house and your baby throws up on you and you ring in it's fine
But you just can't turn up late without a valid reason, the start time is there for a reason in our industry
Same with breaks and lunches, it's a 30 min lunch, not 35 otherwise everyone would take longer and then it all falls apart
No overtime expected, place shuts and we are out the door 30 seconds later

This thread is hilarious!

Nearly as funny as the one all about people attending Zoom meetings from the bath with their Zoom camera off, and their laptop balanced on the loo!

I know my employer gets way more hours out of team working from home than would in office. Lots people log on earlier, take shorter lunch or work in evenings. Personally if they are getting what they need done then questioning 5 minutes is very petty. Working from home is also about having work and home lift balance so luckily our employer isn’t clock watching start and end times but that the results are achieved each month.