If you WFH what time should you start work?

[EatPrayYoga]

If official hours are 9-5, is it a problem if you are not logged on by 9 every day?

I'm a team manager and one person on the team consistently logs on after 9 am. I know because our system shows a green or other colour next to everyone's names in an email so if I email the team I can see who is online and who isn't.

I usually send an email in a morning to confirm any things to be aware of for that day including who is not working that day and who is covering their work.

He usually logs on at about 9.05 but I'm not sure whether to mention this as he is only slightly late. He is in a junior role but wants to progress. There are other people in the same role who start work earlier than 9 to get things done so he stands out as doing less though I can't say who does more or less work in a day as their work is delegated by different members of the team.

I also realise we are in difficult times. He lives with parents and has no children or pets but I believe there are other adult siblings do not sure how easy or difficult the WFH circumstances are.

IABU to be unimpressed?

We're really flexible. Start 8- 9.30. Finish 4.30- 6pm. Sometimes I take 10 minutes for lunch, sometimes I take an hour. In your case I'm getting red flag vibes, how is this guy coping in general? From a mental health point of view I mean. What's his working from home situation like? Yes, you need to talk to him, but there may be a bigger picture beyond starting late if his work is not up to scratch.

Is there a formal performance and mid year review process? Did he get constructive feedback when he got rejected? I'm not saying he should have a hand hold, but it seems he isn't 'getting' something, and whether that's through lazyness, arrogance or naievity it's unclear.

Starting early and finishing late is not the sign of a good employee

I agree. He is a good employee but as I have said above he is in competition for training contract roles (to become a solicitor) and those who start early and finish later to get the job done might be seen to be more keen and flexible and hardworking, whether that is the case or not.

I think we have moved on a bit from whether it's an issue to log on late every day. I accepted pages ago that it's not a big appraisal issue.

I'm not saying he should have a hand hold, but it seems he isn't 'getting' something, and whether that's through lazyness, arrogance or naievity it's unclear.

It's is unclear to me too and his mentor said something similar. He is very pleasant and does most of what you ask very well. His mentor tells me he has made suggestions of things he can do within the business to get involved with events and to know people and he says he appreciates the feedback but then doesn't do it. I don't think he is arrogant. I have considered it could be laziness or naïveté but then how much can you spell things out for them. Whilst he wants to be a solicitor there seems to be a lack of ambition in I'm told his mentor sets to meetings for them regularly and asks him about TCs and what he's doing about it. Honestly I don't think every paralegal gets that much support. He doesn't ever seem to be doing anything or ask questions or make suggestions himself. When I was at that stage I would have taken full advantage of someone offering to help me that way but he's not doing anything other than his job and that's not enough when the others are doing more like organising events and getting involved with different things so that they can talk about it on their application.

It seems then like with the mentor etc it has been made clear to him what the expectations are, how he can get involved etc, so it's his choice. It could be that there is stuff at home that precludes him going above and beyond his hours, but in honesty if he hasn't spoken about it (not that he has to etc), then maybe it's just not something that is suited to him at this time. I had caring responsibilities when I worked in the city, and it just wasn't compatible, not saying that's the case here, but it sounds like your company is giving him the support, presumably he knows who to speak with if he is struggling, and I guess down the line in this field it will be up to him to make the call on whether he can commit the additional hours to progress, or whether it's time to look for something else.

I don’t think working unpaid overtime is uncommon in many industries. There is an expectation of this in the business I work in and it stood us all in good stress during lockdown when many of us were covering multiple roles in order to get us through so we all had jobs to come back to at the end.

I also feel that as in this case, persistent lateness is often an indicator of poor performance across the board.

Times are going to be tough and I am already seeing people I know to be excellent candidates on LinkedIn seeking new roles. I am obviously in the minority but I don’t think anyone can afford to be complacent, and I don't see anything wrong with people demonstrating their commitment by putting in longer hours.

Since lockdown, the company I work for has been re-evaluating all costs as I am sure many businesses have. One of our service providers is certainly not the cheapest, but they continued to support us through lockdown on a skeleton staff. If we email them at 9pm with a request for the following day they action it immediately. This is in no way expected but it is noted and appreciated as we work in exactly the same way. We have not re-evaluated this cost as we know they provide excellent value for the money they charge and we can’t be sure we would receive the same level of service elsewhere.

I agree it is not necessarily the hours put in that is important, it is the work that is done, but this chap isn’t completing the same work as others. I sometimes drop the kids at school or (pre-COVID) used to pop out to school events or parents evening. This was never an issue as my employers know that I always get through my workload and more if needed. I love my job and during these uncertain times it is more important that ever that my employer feels that I provide ‘value’ to the business.

!
It is worth making comments - the rules are the same for everyone. in my company, we wrote explanatory notes even 1 minute late - this disciplines, and leads to discipline in everything - not only in the time of arrival. this is how responsibility is developed, we had it - 3 delays - dismissal. yes, I didn't even want to explain myself 1 minute late - that's why you always come a little in advance

OP you’ve now confirmed what I suspected, which is that this is a law firm. I’m surprised, therefore, that you haven’t mentioned how he is doing with his chargeable hours target as that is a very clear metric by which to compare performance between staff. Does he meet his targets, or exceed them?

(I am not saying that someone who has great chargeable hours can excuse missing the start of meetings etc, but those who consistently do well against those targets tend to be viewed more favourably by management as they are literally bringing in money). I’d also comment that it is usually pretty difficult to meet targets without doing hours outside the core hours.

I’ve explained several times that I don’t agree with the expression “unpaid overtime” in the context of this sort of work environment/likely contractual conditions. People keep saying it, I keep explaining why it is not the right way to look at things, someone else pops up and uses the expression again (looking at you @LuaDipa..) What’s your view OP?

Just a thought, if he is struggling with training contract applications why not suggest he look at the CILEX route or a legal apprenticeship?

Not everyone is suited to the training contract experience and that doesn't necessarily mean they won't be great solicitors.

Classic manager behaviour. Hopefully this whole work from home trend, that will not doubt persist and become much more commonplace after Covid, will do away with this. Base your judgements on output, not if they spend their first 5 mins booting up PC, logging in etc before signing into Skype. And for all we know they are working late or taking shorter breaks. Presenteeism is stupid.

@CheetasOnFajitas I dislike the term. Completely agree that overtime is expected and part of the role in many circumstances. I feel that in most cases, this sort of effort never goes unrewarded in the long run. I used the term simply because it has been used previously. But you are absolutely correct and I accept your point.

As a manager the staff who would concern me most and make me look at their workloads are the ones starting much earlier who clearly feel they need to in order to complete their work. In these times its about balancing work and people's well being.

For the sake of 5 minutes no I wouldn't be questioning him as it could take a few minutes for him to log on, WiFi to kick in, laptop start up generally.

[quote LuaDipa]@CheetasOnFajitas I dislike the term. Completely agree that overtime is expected and part of the role in many circumstances. I feel that in most cases, this sort of effort never goes unrewarded in the long run. I used the term simply because it has been used previously. But you are absolutely correct and I accept your point.[/quote]
@LuaDipa.

He should get up 5 minutes earlier to be available for work at 9am! He must be saving on commuting time, even if his journey to work is only 20 mins.Being late for work every day just looks bad.

I feel that in most cases, this sort of effort never goes unrewarded in the long run

I really really disagree with this, especially in a law environment.

I have only skimmed the thread so I apologise if I'm repeating or have got things wrong.

I work in law, I understand the high pressure but I also understand the absolutely ridiculous expectations management put on staff in terms of workload.

Imo overtime should never be expected or unpaid. Mine and my colleagues hours are 9-5 and they, I stopped a while ago precisely because it's never rewarded, can still be there working away at 9pm onwards, and for what? Certainly not recognition or praise in the large firms I've worked for. Usually just more work piled on top of the work you're already telling management you're struggling to cope with.

I honestly think law is a terrible working environment. I know it sounds very stereotypical but the large city centre firms I've worked in my entire working life have all been your standard greedy, don't give a shit about staff welfare type environments with people regularly working all hours just to catch up (which they never do) and have their own name smeared by clients who expect more (which they should), all whilst begging management for help (which they never get). My husband couldn't believe how many people were off with stress, work based depression, on ADs etc... It's just common place though. People crying in the break room, just getting up and walking out etc... All very normal.

I now work at a small high street firm, one of these traditional old school places and I tell you, the difference is incredible.

PP is right, this presenteeism culture is wrong. Your performance should absolutely be based on what you get done during the day, not whether you log in a few minutes late or work UNPAID overtime. But there also has to be a reasonable amount of work to begin with. It is not on to overwork staff and then expect them to work unpaid overtime to cover it. If your staff can't do their work during their working hours, you have too much of it and you as management should be looking at other ways to manage it.

I would think he needs to type in his u/n and password at 9 and if it takes 5 minutes or 15 minutes for him to get logged in it is the issue of his employers systems. Good on him for being pedantic esp. as management sound arsey. That said he shouldn't expect to be progressed either and he probably knows he won't anyway. It is clear that the issue you have with him is not just his timekeeping. Tbf, if a manager has to come on mn for advice, it seems like he is not the only one struggling to do their job properly in your workplace. Looks like everyone might benefit from a bit of training.

@DidSomebodySayJustFeet I do recognise the environment that you describe and agree that it is toxic and no way to run a business.

However I think that there is a middle ground between only expecting your staff to work 9-5 and requiring extra hours to be put in when clients needs require it, or setting a chargeable hours target that will need a bit of work beyond core hours.

You are of course right that expectations of the amount of work should not be objectively unreasonable or exploitative.
I’m glad you’ve found a firm that works well for you, but they will have very different financial and client service models to the firms that choose not to give their staff fixed contracts plus paid overtime.

He doesn't ever seem to be doing anything or ask questions or make suggestions himself.

This bit stood out to me. Is it possible he lacks self-confidence and therefore struggles to put himself out there, especially with people he doesn't yet have a strong working relationship with? I'd be investigating that possibility if I was his manager as it is something that coaching can absolutely help with if you are aware of the problem you're trying to solve.

but they will have very different financial and client service models to the firms that choose not to give their staff fixed contracts plus paid overtime

I absolutely agree about non fixed contracts plus paid overtime.

But that is not my experience of law firms. All the ones I've worked at have been fixed contracts but with the separate expectation that you'll work unpaid over time. This just means they have an excuse to give you more and more work than you can physically cope with during your working day because they know you'll stay until 9pm to finish it.

It becomes peoples lives and it's so unhealthy. I've seen people depressed because of it, crying in the office, walking out because they can't deal with it anymore, a colleague at my last place it nearly ended her marriage.

It's very different from having a flexi contract with the offer of paid overtime occasionally. I'm talking about people day in day out starting work at 7am and not leaving until 8pm when they are contracted 9-5 and get nothing extra for those additional hours. Or taking files home to do over the weekend, even coming in on their supposed annual leave days off because they are too scared to take any time off because the work will be overwhelming when they return, checking emails on their phone from the hotel on their holiday etc...

It's not the kind of work environment we should be encouraging.

And the firms that do treat their employees badly only notice if people start to vote with their feet and they struggle to fill the vacancies with good enough people, or get fed up with endless employee churn. But many just accept that as part and parcel of the way they do business.

@DidSomebodySayJustFeet

but they will have very different financial and client service models to the firms that choose not to give their staff fixed contracts plus paid overtime

I absolutely agree about non fixed contracts plus paid overtime.

But that is not my experience of law firms. All the ones I've worked at have been fixed contracts but with the separate expectation that you'll work unpaid over time. This just means they have an excuse to give you more and more work than you can physically cope with during your working day because they know you'll stay until 9pm to finish it.

It becomes peoples lives and it's so unhealthy. I've seen people depressed because of it, crying in the office, walking out because they can't deal with it anymore, a colleague at my last place it nearly ended her marriage.

It's very different from having a flexi contract with the offer of paid overtime occasionally. I'm talking about people day in day out starting work at 7am and not leaving until 8pm when they are contracted 9-5 and get nothing extra for those additional hours. Or taking files home to do over the weekend, even coming in on their supposed annual leave days off because they are too scared to take any time off because the work will be overwhelming when they return, checking emails on their phone from the hotel on their holiday etc...

It's not the kind of work environment we should be encouraging.

Absolutely. A lot of organisations have twigged to the fact that fostering a good work-life balance isn't just something warm and fuzzy solely for the benefit of employees but it actually makes for a far more effective workforce. It's a shame that some companies, and possibly certain industries, are still living in the 1980s.

Just saw your follow up @DidSomebodySayJustFeet. Are you sure that people were “contracted to work 9-5” in your former work places? They may have had core hours if 9-5 stated in the contract but the contract would have language in there making it clear you could be asked to work outside those hours and would not be able unreasonably to refuse. And you may not have realised it, but the salary offered would have been lower if they had genuinely expected that most employees would only work core hours.

What this means in practice is not that the employer can routinely expect you not to leave your desk until 7, or be available for meetings every Saturday afternoon. However it does mean that you can’t say “sorry, I can’t meet that client deadline because I have to go home early tonight”. It’s not workable for people with responsibilities outside work. As you get more senior you manage the expectations of the clients directly yourself but that is not a luxury afforded to junior staff.

Oh and just to be clear I am not at all saying that is how they should do business/treat staff. Just pointing out that many do.

As a paralegal hoping to get a TC in a very competitive environment you need to do all you can to impress. Those who are more willing to push themselves beyond just doing the basics tend to get given more responsibility and are more likely to progress. I’ve seen many paralegals complaining that they’re not getting on or not being given the ‘good’ work to allow them to impress and blame favouritism or whatever whilst failing to realise that others are getting given the work or opportunities because they try harder. It’s an incredibly competitive field. I also heard a trainee complaining about all the ‘unpaid’ overtime he was doing and how he always made a point to leave at 5.30 on the dot if he could - I’d have had more sympathy if the overtime amounted to more than a few evenings where he’d worked until 8ish all for a miserly £80000+

I think, working in law too, this is where the line gets confused.

Because no it isn't unreasonable to stay behind every not and then to meet a particular clients deadline. But it is when the reason you aren't meeting said deadlines is simply because you have too many clients to begin with which is very often the case.

So I do think the wording of core hours and expectations to work overtime to meet deadlines are wrong, purely for the fact that they are abused by many employers as a means to overwork their staff. That's my experience anyway.