If you WFH what time should you start work?

[EatPrayYoga]

If official hours are 9-5, is it a problem if you are not logged on by 9 every day?

I'm a team manager and one person on the team consistently logs on after 9 am. I know because our system shows a green or other colour next to everyone's names in an email so if I email the team I can see who is online and who isn't.

I usually send an email in a morning to confirm any things to be aware of for that day including who is not working that day and who is covering their work.

He usually logs on at about 9.05 but I'm not sure whether to mention this as he is only slightly late. He is in a junior role but wants to progress. There are other people in the same role who start work earlier than 9 to get things done so he stands out as doing less though I can't say who does more or less work in a day as their work is delegated by different members of the team.

I also realise we are in difficult times. He lives with parents and has no children or pets but I believe there are other adult siblings do not sure how easy or difficult the WFH circumstances are.

IABU to be unimpressed?

OP I totally get your situation. The fact is if he’s a paralegal that wants a training contract then he’s going about it in completely the wrong way. He’ll never get anywhere by doing the minimum required. If I were you I’d mention it to him in a friendly way - say something like “I know how keen you are to get ahead so I just wanted to let you know that it’s very competitive and the others are all starting a bit early and finishing a bit late to get more done and impress. Not saying you have to do the same but didn’t want you to miss out on opportunities because you didn’t realise others were putting a lot more in”.

That way you’re not telling him off, you’re just making him aware that he needs to pull his socks up a bit.

For those of you giving the OP a hard time about this - the guy is probably mid-twenties, earning £30k and going for a position that will earn around £50k. So he’s not suffering and is going for a high reward!

You have a presenteeism problem. I work in an aggressive commercial field where hours are noticed. One individual I used to work with would be in well before me and leave later but spent quite a lot of time looking for his next renovation project or browsing other things. Not being logged on in time for 9 is not a problem so long as he makes time up in lunch or after work. He should work his contracted hours however the ‘expectation’ that he works more is unreasonable and certainly not grounds for you to raise an issue. If you can’t get the work done in your contract hours then you need to change the contract OR you as an employer need to show flexibility and give and take around hours expected. Also if you want to continue attracting talent I would encourage a flexible approach as the approach to management you indicate is antiquated and not fit for purpose in the current age and climate.

Why do you want to nurture someone who does the minimum? Support the hardworking trainees to succeed. You are being too kind to him. If he is late with deadlines and is forgetful about meetings he’s not cut out for it. You’re not his mother!

Conkergame Yes that's exactly it and I have said things in such a way. We have a good relationship but I do feel slightly frustrated now he is not helping himself. There are other people in the office who are visibly going out of their way to get involved in things and also offering to do more to get more experience and starting work early and finishing late.

I get the comments that logging on early doesn't mean they are working all day but it can be helpful to have someone available to help you if you are working early or late doing something urgent.

Fucket Yes maybe but I'm either too soft or have ridiculous expectations according to Mumsnet. I try to support everyone and this person does have lots of good points too, maybe just not ready for the next step yet.

Personally I'd really resent strict working hours like this with WFH. Maybe it's because my job doesn't involve a lot of direct contact with people & everything is done by email. And I'm on salary not hourly. When I moved to WFH (even before COVID) I have always had 100% control over my own hours & schedule because what is the point of WFH if it comes with the same time ties as office work? I wanted WFH because I want to be able to go out in the afternoon sometimes or to have a morning for something else, so will start very early, or will split hours and work very late on days where I want to use some of the daytime hours for others things. Always get everything done, and always ahead of the deadline. If he's getting everything done, why does it matter?

You say your org is flexible but you seem inflexible. I don't know what you mean when you say you see when he logs on - I haven't read the whole thread - where do you see this?

As an example, I generally only show up to Teams by 9.05/9.10 but I am on my emails before then. So I actually start work before I start teams (this is because I am having to use 2 devices which take varying times to start up). Like many have said output matters.

I really think this is not a hill to die on during a global pandemic, when you do not even know all the ins and outs of peoples personal lives and mental health. If he is slacking in other ways that might be a separate issue to deal with but I think flexibility is key. Again, output matters most.

I’ve worked from home for a few years now and we also have a system where you can see who is active, offline, etc.

Thankfully we are not micro managed, we can effectively work whatever hours we want as long as we get the job done. Trust works both ways.

So if he logged in at 8.59am he'd be in your good books? Apart from the fact that he needs reminding to attend meetings?

See, I'm on the fence about this. If he was an old pro and knew the job inside out and got stuff done in time, I'd let it fly. 9.05 am, whatever.

But he doesn't. He doesn't do stuff in the allocated time and others have to pick up his slack. He sounds like a chancer who's taking the piss.

Therefore, YANBU op.

If he's getting everything done, why does it matter?
^

He's not though.

I work from home but thankfully I don't have arseholes checking my log in time. They trust me to do my job. I generally log in at 8.40 am.

I can't say who does more or less work in a day as their work is delegated by different members of the team.

His work otherwise is lacking and there is a general impression of not putting in enough effort or missing deadlines.

So which is it? Or does it depend on which direction the thread is going in?

@feistyoneyouare

But you can’t disagree- it is fact, not opinion!

'It' being what, specifically?

That there is no such thing as working “unpaid” when your contract requires you to work the hours necessary to do the job. Your contract will also say what hours you have to be available for work but your salary is set to compensate you for all work you do, not just work done during those core hours. Therefore characterising early morning, late evening and weekend work as “unpaid” is factually incorrect.

That there is no such thing as working “unpaid” when your contract requires you to work the hours necessary to do the job. Your contract will also say what hours you have to be available for work but your salary is set to compensate you for all work you do, not just work done during those core hours. Therefore characterising early morning, late evening and weekend work as “unpaid” is factually incorrect.

I do see what you are saying and am familiar with that type of contract (I misunderstood which bit you were referring to with 'see above') but I do think contracts like this leave the employee wide open to exploitation. I once worked somewhere (household name company) where this aspect of the contract was exploited as a matter of course, on a daily basis, not just occasionally, and staff were effectively threatened with dismissal if they weren't willing to go 'over and above', not just from time to time, but daily. It's morally wrong and bloody awful for morale.

I am about to start a new job myself for which the contract specifies core hours and does say that sometimes there may be a requirement to work at times outside of those hours, but said contract also specifies the working week to be x hours long and makes provision for TOIL to be given if more hours are worked. This is much fairer and more respectful of the fact that offices are staffed by people, not robots.

If organisations need their staff working long days, routinely, in order for everything to get done, imho their business model is faulty and they need to be recruiting more staff, not screwing their existing ones for longer hours than are neither productive nor healthy. I accept that if someone's on good money it's more incumbent on them to go 'over and above' from time to time, but we all know long hours can be damaging to an employee's health and that they're not even that helpful productivity-wise.

You're getting a hard time on here OP and a lot of it is due to projection.

Where you work there are certain expectations for trainees and he is acting like he's been there 10 years and earned his stripes when he clearly doesn't get what is expected of him. I feel a bit sorry for him that no one has pointed this out to him. I've met trainees like this and they get really disillusioned when they see their cohorts rise in the ranks and they do not.

I asked him to do something urgent today and he can't because he is finishing something from yesterday. Other person in same role has agreed to do it although he started work before 8 so is doing at least as much. Seems unfair to the other person.

Could he have done this extra task if he'd started five mins earlier? If not, then I think it's unfair to regard him negatively for not choosing to do unpaid work like his colleague.

Yes, it's good if someone is prepared to occasionally 'go the extra mile', but I too hate presenteeism. I used to work in a 9-5 job and had the highest sales conversion in my team, but several of the women started coming in 8:30-6pm (incidentally because that's when they got dropped off picked up) and the divisional director started making sarcastic "off to lunch?" comments when anyone left on time. My line manager then told me that the director now liked everyone staying late because the other directors had noticed and commented on how committed his team were, and he advised me to do the same if I wanted to stay in the good books. Funnily enough said director often 'had to fly' shortly after 5pm. Utter bullshit.

5 minutes, please tell me you're not really this petty.

Where you work there are certain expectations for trainees and he is acting like he's been there 10 years and earned his stripes when he clearly doesn't get what is expected of him.

Sounds like the attitude of the above director I mention.

I'm so glad I retrained and now earn more than most office workers operating a crane and getting paid 1.5x my hourly rate for any overtime.

He doesn't seem to value his job. I'd talk to him about all the issues you have outlined and if things don't change, either let him go or promote other members of staff above him.

Lord If you don't want to work any additional hours you are not paid for, that's your choice. However there are certain roles where trainees are expected to put in excess hours as they work towards a role or qualifying etc. It doesn't matter if you think that's wrong or right or whether it is wrong or right, it is how it is and is unlikely to change in the future.

Logging on 5 minutes late isn't an issue. Missing deadlines is. When he misses a deadline, you should speak to him about the importance of managing his time in general.

In regards to promotion, I dont see what your problem is, if there are other people who deserve a promotion and are more likely to get it than him, that's a good thing. If he talks to you about wanting a promotion, you tell him what he needs to do to stand out. It's up to him then what he does. It's not your job to make sure he reaches his aspirations.

It doesn't matter if you think that's wrong or right or whether it is wrong or right, it is how it is and is unlikely to change in the future.

The same could be said about the patriarchy. Guess it should just be accepted.

It's about the impression he's giving as much as anything.

I've had too many trainees to count (in a very competitive environment) and always explained at the start of every new trainee's time with me that everyone, particularly those who make the hiring and firing decisions, notices lateness ((even if it's a matter of minutes) and will judge you for it. By choosing to be late every day (and this is a choice, his lateness is not due to a late train etc) then he will be judged.

@LordLancington

It doesn't matter if you think that's wrong or right or whether it is wrong or right, it is how it is and is unlikely to change in the future.

The same could be said about the patriarchy. Guess it should just be accepted.

No comparison.

Those who are lawyers: I may as well say this as I have identified my field now that he is a paralegal. He has a law degree and has been with us for about 3 years.

He applied for a training contract last year and didn't get it and has just applied again this year. There are a few people in our office who want them so it is competitive.

I take your point that a few minutes isn't a big issue but I think PP got it right in saying it's an impression. To be honest it's not just that he logs on a few minutes late, it's that every other trainee or paralegal who wants a training contract makes sure they are there early or works late and he doesn't seem to realise that he needs to fight for those places.

I think the reason I do try to help him a bit more is because he has been in our team the longest and also he is not outgoing at all and I think he will struggle with the application process with interviews etc but I do value him as part of our team and I want him to do well. Talking to people is part of the job so he needs to work on this and it is not my job to get him ready to apply for TCs but I am helping and I know his mentor tries to help. He doesn't seem to take the suggestions.

His work is mostly fine for where he is at but I suppose he is just not going the extra mile and sitting down at his desk not a minute earlier than 9 am every day (even if he is telling me he is really busy or behind on work) is part of that.

I'm not going to raise it as an issue as it's not having a significant impact on his job as others have said and I am certainly not micromanaging him but it might impact his chances to get a TC and his mentor and I have tried to give him advice about what he can do to improve his chances.

Starting early and finishing late is not the sign of a good employee. It’s a poorly managed organisation if someone switching on their laptop at 9.05 instead of 9.00. It doesn’t matter. For all you know those who switch on early are just managing you and making it look as though they are working early but in reality they are having a long breakfast.