If you WFH what time should you start work?

[EatPrayYoga]

If official hours are 9-5, is it a problem if you are not logged on by 9 every day?

I'm a team manager and one person on the team consistently logs on after 9 am. I know because our system shows a green or other colour next to everyone's names in an email so if I email the team I can see who is online and who isn't.

I usually send an email in a morning to confirm any things to be aware of for that day including who is not working that day and who is covering their work.

He usually logs on at about 9.05 but I'm not sure whether to mention this as he is only slightly late. He is in a junior role but wants to progress. There are other people in the same role who start work earlier than 9 to get things done so he stands out as doing less though I can't say who does more or less work in a day as their work is delegated by different members of the team.

I also realise we are in difficult times. He lives with parents and has no children or pets but I believe there are other adult siblings do not sure how easy or difficult the WFH circumstances are.

IABU to be unimpressed?

Then he got promoted right @LakieLady

But most of these employers are clear at the recruitment stage that the salary is paid in return for working beyond core hours. So people are not working beyond what they are paid for. Nobody really thinks of these jobs in terms of hourly rates

No, but if you routinely expect people to eg work until 6 or 7pm when they're only paid until 5, and/or they work through lunch, you can't exactly moan about them logging on 5 mins late! It works both ways - employers always seem to think they are doing their staff a favour. Well they are to an extent, but they also need people to do work for them, it's not a completely one-sided bargain.

@cologne4711 I fully agree. Although I posted to back up the OP’s description of it being normal in some jobs to work longer than core office hours I do not support her quibbling over the 5 minutes.

You do, however, need to get away from the idea, that people are expected to work till 6 or 7 but are “only paid until 5”. That’s not how it works. The contract usually says that they must be present in the office within the core hours but also that they must work whatever hours are required to complete the work. They are being paid for their output, not for a set number of hours. There is no such thing as “only being paid till 5”.

No, but if you routinely expect people to eg work until 6 or 7pm when they're only paid until 5, and/or they work through lunch, you can't exactly moan about them logging on 5 mins late!

No agree but he doesn't do that!

He does not work late either. I have mentioned this above.

His work otherwise is lacking and there is a general impression of not putting in enough effort or missing deadlines. If I ask for something by a certain time it is often late. There are often basic mistakes.

I think that's more of the focus. If his work isn't good, is often late and appears that he isn't trying, then logging in 5 minutes late appears a continuation of that lack of interest and commitment. If he wants to progress, he needs to work on that.

The 5 minutes on its own isn't the end of the world, but if it's an overall shoddy work ethic, it's not good.

I’m astounded at how many people think it’s OK to work 5 minutes less than your contracted hours each day. It might only be 5 minutes, but it builds up over time.
Say the hourly rate was £12 per hour. That’s £5 per week for those 5 minutes.
If you had £5 a week taken out of your salary, every single week, would you shrug and say “ah it’s only £5, it would be petty to complain”?

I think it probably takes 5 mins to fire up his laptop and log in, I couldn't get worked up over 5mins.
Performance is different, you are focusing on the wrong thing. If he is young/ relatively new to the role he may need extra support or mentoring which is harder to receive when everyone is WFH

7am.

Honestly I think that if businesses are going to make WFH successful then they need to fully embrace remote working and drop presenteeism.
I run a completely virtual team and as long as team members show up for fixed meetings and I can reach them if I need to I really don't care when they work as long as the work gets done.
When I started I was given the option of pc monitoring which I thought was both invasive and ridiculous.
Trying to replicate the Office into the WFH environment will not work for many roles. Better to nail down system and expectations.
If the work stops being done to the required standard then you know there are issues.

Also perhaps he should follow his bosses lead and log on promptly at 9 so green dot is showing and then go on Mumsnet😂

I get it OP

I work in an industry where you work until the work gets done. This often means working beyond normal hours for no pay. Last week I worked an extra 5/6 hours total, this week I probably worked an hour or two less than my contracted hours. If it's too much and we aren't coping, we flag it and get support. But it's expected that we will work beyond our hours at times and just get on with it.

Where I work his timekeeping wouldn't be an issue if he was getting everything done and doing a great job...

Can he only work on the laptop? He might be working on paper and checking emails on his phone.

Also perhaps he should follow his bosses lead and log on promptly at 9 so green dot is showing and then go on Mumsnet

Not sure who you mean as I'm on annual leave today but still doing a bit of work!

Can he only work on the laptop?

Yes he is only working on laptop.

Exactly nanbread

I was wondering whether you should say something on the grounds that he's ambitious and may not realise that what he is doing will hamper his career progression.

However from the performance problems you've touched on, and his lack of responsiveness to feedback, it doesn't seem like he'll be securing the TC either way.

Aside from that, I'm not fussed what time people start (within reason) as long as they make it up. Otherwise if this is every single day over a week he's only working say 37 hours of his 37.5 hour contract. Over the course of a year he's pushing towards giving himself almost an extra week's paid leave compared to what he should have and his colleagues have. Although I realise people take plenty of other unofficial breaks throughout a day!

@Mintychoc1

I’m astounded at how many people think it’s OK to work 5 minutes less than your contracted hours each day. It might only be 5 minutes, but it builds up over time. Say the hourly rate was £12 per hour. That’s £5 per week for those 5 minutes. If you had £5 a week taken out of your salary, every single week, would you shrug and say “ah it’s only £5, it would be petty to complain”?

If this were in a physical workplace, I think it's rather the difference between expecting you to walk in the door at 9, versus expecting you to be at your desk logged into all relevant systems at 9.

Working from home perhaps muddies the waters a bit, but I can still understand a "clock watcher" sitting down and turning their laptop on at 9 am and not a minute before.

I also wonder if there's some past history, maybe under a different manager, that's led to this employee being disgruntled and refusing to work more than their contracted hours. And if he's a "junior" I'm wondering if working longer hours could actually push his pay below minimum wage which is of course unlawful.

I'm reminded of the case involving Amazon, where the ruling was that the time employees spent waiting to be searched before leaving counted as working hours that they had to be paid for.

@Ahhwoofwoof

Honestly, you sound like a nightmare to work for. Good luck to the kid. I can't say it's even crossed my mind what time my team log on. Do they get the work done? Are they coping OK? Do they have what they need? No, a lot of them are working in their parent's houses, some without any dedicated space because 3 other family members are also home working.

As if working from home isn't challenging enough without their 'supervisor' getting upset over why they're 300 seconds 'late'. Have some empathy.

Yep this totally!

He's wfh...there is no reason to be late, unless traffic is bad in the hallway.
If his computer takes 5 mins to switch on, he needs to switch it on sooner. Can always go make a brew whilst waiting for it.

I have a similar situation - professional job where most of us work longer than contractual hours but we are well paid so it’s accepted as part of the role - not a case of presenteeism but if work needs finishing you work the hours to get it done. We have a flexitime system with core hours which are very relaxed (have to be there 10-3 with no more than two hours lunch break 12-2), can do rest of 7 hours any time 7-7 and indeed since all WFH since March we are even more flexible in practice due to childcare etc. But one member of my team consistently does just under required hours or at most exact hours and makes it clear she resents any meetings at eg 10am. She also frequently doesn’t meet deadlines. I’ve tried to tackle it by first checking if any personal reasons for it and then by pointing out that if she wants to progress (which she does) then we would expect clearer indication of her commitment and finally that if we let down our clients they may go elsewhere so ultimately not enough work for us all. Every time we’ve discussed it improves for a while then goes back to how it was. But I thunk you have to try.

Some of you clearly understand the work environment but I do agree with PP who says it's a bit more difficult WFH as starting work is different to be being logged in and online

Your company sounds a shit place to work. Quibbling over 5 mins, expecting people to work extra hours unpaid, micromanaging staff. Ridiculous.

A lot of you are not understanding that in these sorts of workplaces, in addition to there being no concept of being “paid until 5” etc, there will likely be a bonus programme so that those who consistently put in effort over and above the core hours will be rewarded if their employer does well at the end of the financial year.

"I’m astounded at how many people think it’s OK to work 5 minutes less than your contracted hours each day. It might only be 5 minutes, but it builds up over time.
Say the hourly rate was £12 per hour. That’s £5 per week for those 5 minutes.
If you had £5 a week taken out of your salary, every single week, would you shrug and say “ah it’s only £5, it would be petty to complain”?"

Yes, I'd shrug. Some people take fag breaks, some people take longer to do certain things. Some people chat to colleagues. Some people have longer meetings than they need to, etc. etc. etc. You can't be picky about 5 minutes unless you're going to check all those things too. Are you going to start fining people because they have smaller bladders than some others and take more toilet breaks? Where will it end?

@GrimDamnFanjo

Honestly I think that if businesses are going to make WFH successful then they need to fully embrace remote working and drop presenteeism. I run a completely virtual team and as long as team members show up for fixed meetings and I can reach them if I need to I really don't care when they work as long as the work gets done. When I started I was given the option of pc monitoring which I thought was both invasive and ridiculous. Trying to replicate the Office into the WFH environment will not work for many roles. Better to nail down system and expectations. If the work stops being done to the required standard then you know there are issues.

This x 1000.

I'm not micromanaging at all.

I just asked for opinions because everyone else is available early. I know this because sometimes I need something done urgently and I look at who seems to be online. Certain people are always online early and if I skype them they reply so it's not a front.

This person is not and so I honestly am not sure what the official expectation is. I don't really want to create an issue with HR but it is obvious that a certain person gets work from me if I need something in a morning because she is online and this other person is not. She could get annoyed at that or maybe she is trying to get ahead.

I asked a reasonable question. I have not done anything. I don't know what some of you are so worked up over to be honest.

The field I work in is demanding but it well paid, I like the people and I enjoy it. My employer often wins employer of the year awards so it really isn't a bad place to work. I have worked in far worse places but nowhere is perfect of course.

Again thanks for the replies. I have decided to leave it and concentrate on the other things but not in an official performance management way atm just to see if he needs more support. His mentor seems very supportive.

The way I've always handled this with hundreds of employees over the years is to have a frank chat it goes like this.

It suits some people to start at 9am and finish at 5pm on the dot. It suits other people to be a bit flexible and take the flexibility back. So, maybe start early if there's lots on or work late if busy but at the same time, nip off for an hour if the plumber needs to visit or whatever. But its one or the other. Its totally fine to be in the 9 to 5 camp. But in this case, you need to be available to work (logged on) from 9am sharp. And I don't expect you logged off til 5pm. If you need personal time then there's annual leave. But if you want flexibly, you need to give it. And covering your hours fully should be an expected part of your usual contribution. Its up to you.

You need to be comfortable with what you contribute. That includes accepting that someone else who contributes more may well progress quicker or be rewarded more.

The employee sets the tone here.