To be disgusted with Qatars assault on these women?

[ChristmasStocckings]

I'm honestly shocked at how these poor women have been treated and my heart breaks for them. How on earth did anyone think that this was ok? No one should be forced to have an examination that they did not consent too. There is no excuse for this behaviour.

www.news.com.au/travel/travel-updates/incidents/doha-dfat-registers-serious-concerns-after-women-pulled-off-plane-strip-searched/news-story/f4eb941d267c2211605238a574935995

Australian police in NSW have a habit of strip searching at music festivals, two girls were as young as 12. They rarely find anything and the state government have been questioned over it by journalists.

It’s disgusting and degrading, if you google you will find strip searches happening around the world.

Strip searching teenagers and women in Australia

Why are Sky News still advertising Qatar airways?
💰

This is utterly crazy. I hope the baby’s alright 🙁

@Friendsoftheearth

I grew up in London at the same time as you, and I have seen or heard of this happening ske never ever. The only time anyone was subject to this would be once you are admitted into prison to ensure you are not carrying drugs.

We are talking about serious levels of unreported crimes of rape and murder in the ME.

This happened on public streets, not in jail, not in a medical tent on the tarmac.

This happened to me.

I have never ever been a criminal.

The last time it happened to me was in 2004 in Hackney. I read medicine at Cambridge, I did my clinical years at Barts. Some of my black friends from school were studying other courses at QMUL and came along to a med student social near the Homerton.

We were outside, clear plastic drinks cups in hand like dozens of other young people there, getting tipsy and generally enjoying ourselves. I was so happy to be back in London. I felt proud and I felt my friends were proud of me.

Police were apparently looking for 'local Bengali young men' selling drugs. But only my black (and one Lebanese) friends were searched and I was searched with them. The police officer was actually apprehensive about searching me because my white and Asian med school friends intervened...

We were profiled. The south Asian med students with us probably better fit the racial profile but they had RP accents and they wore chinos and loafers.

I consented to the search because by this point I'm numb, I'm humiliated and I just wanted it to be over. I refused to act like I was with my med student friends and ditch my other friends.

I thought things might have improved recently until my brother and our 14 year old nephew were searched this year on Walworth road. They were cycling to keep fit during lockdown. My brother pointed to the left because he heard a police car, and wanted to make sure my nephew stopped safely. Apparently that could've been a drugs signal. My brother works in finance, he was wearing an alumni rugby kit from Durham. He'd have to be one of the dumbest drug dealers alive to wear identifying clothing.

My nephew is a straight A student he was separated from my brother so that they couldn't confer they took his phone and didn't allow him to call our sister to try and confirm his age. He is 6'2". He was patted down and had his genitals felt but in his case through his outer clothes. So things have improved slightly.

Back in the day, stop and search is why we called the big police minibuses bully vans, because when there is a group of police officers in one of them they normally bullied us and we were pretty much powerless to stop any violations.

I think you have selective empathy. You don't believe things that can't happen to you. Unfortunately I had selective empathy too because I forgot there are places in the world that middle class British people can be treated like we were. I should've just focused on supporting instead of my earlier whataboutism post.

@Friendsoftheearth The British Embassy advised Caitlin McNamara to leave the country as opposed to supporting her speaking to the police in Abu Dhabi, despite updated guidance being given to the British Embassy in 2018 that explained the changes involving the decriminalisation of people impacted by these dreadful attacks. Now, it becomes a PR war instead of a battle to prosecute and punish offenders, which serves nobody while the perpetrator is prosecuted and removed quietly.

As someone who works in the UAE and specifically pushed that decriminalisation, and is also a survivor of sexual assault - I wish that the British government would at least give survivors the correct information so they can make informed choices. While I unequivocally condemn the behaviour of the Qataris: this is not the type of act that is acceptable in other Gulf states, it's been met with outrage, and it's dreadful to see people use dog whistle racism, engage in Islamaphobia and talk about a Middle East that existed closer to 2000 than 2020.

So much progress has been made, and there is so much still to come - but constantly dismissing any liberalisation is not helpful to the goals some of you presumably have for people in the region. We can condemn a specific country and its policy or behaviour in this instance without dragging in entire races, regions, cultures and religions.

sergeilavrov

I love how your username fits your posts!!

@Friendsoftheearth

Not to mention Gwyneth, Kate Hudson and Zoe Saldana advertising Dubai, and Jennifer Aniston for Emirates (with hefty paychecks no doubt) while even within the Dubai royal family the females are being abused and imprisoned (have a look at what has happened to two of the Emir's more "independent" daughters so far).

His Jordanian ex wife said she would never tolerate or be a part of what was being "alleged" .. not long after she fled Dubai, holed up.in London with high security, claimed diplomatic status and started divorcing him and trying to get custody of their children.

And of course most of our premier League footballers are running around with Emirates in their kit too.

serge If you live in the UAE you will know that there is no way on earth the Sheikh would be condemned, prosecuted or challenged. You know as well as I do Caitlin McNamara stood NO CHANCE at all of police protection - much less a successful prosecution of the Sheikh!

I mean it truly is absurd that you have even suggested this was even a possibility. It is simply untrue.

Seriously I can't imagine a more dangerous position for Caitlin McNamara to be in, and she absolutely took the right action.

The British Embassy took direct action to protect her from further problems. There is no such thing as justice for women in McNamara's position.

You might like to think progress has been made, but by most people's standards it is still absolutely abysmal.
Whilst I respect and indeed admire the history and culture of some countries in the ME, and the importance of protecting these elements, you are misguided if you feel that there has been any significant advances in terms of human and women's rights. The progress has been pitiful at best.

while even within the Dubai royal family the females are being abused and imprisoned

Better than a Saudi public beheading though ...

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mishaal_bint_Fahd_bin_Mohammed_Al_Saud

(I leave it to readers to decide whether the Granada documentary that exposed this to the world en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_a_Princess would have been broadcast - or even made - in 2020 ...)

@Friendsoftheearth I do live in the UAE, and with all due respect, I disagree. The British Embassy had a duty to give her the information at least, which was not done. I, coming from the UK, do understand that these recent commitments may not seem credible, and if she was notified and made the decision to leave - that's entirely reasonable. However, she wasn't fully informed. I hope we can agree that sexual abuse survivors deserve to be given control, and part of that is access to the bigger picture.

If you knew the country, you'd know that the country has before prosecuted and given significant and severe sentences to members of even its own family for crimes relating to the abuse of people. This is a country striving to do the right thing. I'm sorry that the year-on-year progress isn't deemed sufficient by you, and I hope that one day we'll be at the point you are comfortable visiting countries like the UAE. However, I think it's difficult for outsiders to understand the delicate balance between liberalisation and maintaining the ability to make progress. It's a balance that must be struck and managed carefully by many leaders in the region, lest they lose the ability to further progress.

The key point is that Qatar is a very different country and culture to other Gulf states, so generalisations are unhelpful. The UAE and KSA, along with a number of countries, have a blockade against Qatar over the matter of their extremist activities. We should be specific in our criticism.

*’Kennedy said it would have been impossible for McNamara to pursue a case against Nahyan in the UAE, due to the illegality of insulting or defaming royal family members.

“No law firm in the UAE would act for her against the royals. They are all-powerful. They are the law. She has no recourse to justice there.’*

Helena Kennedy QC

@Winterterrace Ah yes, Ms. Kennedy. I believe she’s still quite irritated at the UAE condemnation of Hamas, she sits with her Qatari friends. I believe it was when her charity (MAP) partnered with Ard El Insan that the UAE condemned the organisation along with Canada, the US and the UK. The group was used to lend legitimacy to banking channels through which Hamas financing was passed.

Everyone has their incentives, I’m afraid.

So it isn’t a place where women are arrested for reporting rape?

@Winterterrace Abu Dhabi? Not any more. There are specialist trained officers and medical workers who are now equipped to support survivors without the need to report. Abortion or emergency contraception is also available.

Qatar, the whole point of this thread? Yes, you will still be arrested.

’Personal attacks, including sexual assault and rape, are relatively rare, but do happen. UAE law places a high burden of proof on the victim to demonstrate that the sexual relations were not consensual, especially when the victim had consumed alcohol or where the alleged attacker was known to the victim. If the sexual relations are determined to have been consensual, both parties may face prosecution for the offence of sex outside marriage.‘

Foreign Office travel advice

@Winterterrace You can continue citing British advice all you like, but we've already discussed that the British gave outdated advice. I've relayed the up to date information such that women can understand their rights in Abu Dhabi, but ultimately - this is about women who were sexually assaulted in Qatar, a country that routinely engages in such extreme acts, and the condemnation of this behaviour that has been issued from people across the world from the UK to the UAE.

My sympathies are with those survivors, and I hope they get the support they need.

Oh wow! I checked all the FO advice when the Dutch woman was imprisoned for being raped a few years back. It was inadequate for women traveling. I emailed them.

I'm guessing other people did as well/ or other things made them think but I'm glad they're doing this more.

Still doesn't excuse what was done to those women though. At all.

They were also assaulted at the airport during a transfer..

I don't think many people would check about the rules particularly when they were getting off one plane and into another. Which is entirely normal and not a wanton dereliction of personal safety or something.

[quote sergeilavrov]@Winterterrace You can continue citing British advice all you like, but we've already discussed that the British gave outdated advice. I've relayed the up to date information such that women can understand their rights in Abu Dhabi, but ultimately - this is about women who were sexually assaulted in Qatar, a country that routinely engages in such extreme acts, and the condemnation of this behaviour that has been issued from people across the world from the UK to the UAE.

My sympathies are with those survivors, and I hope they get the support they need.[/quote]
You were the one who brought in the UAE and KSA as somehow morally superior—which is farcical. They are all terrible places for women, particularly those from third-world countries.

Fucking hell, I am disgusted by this report and disgusted by the attitudes from posters on this thread.

It's not illegal. Jesus wept. What kind of response is that?!

@Dyrne

Why can we never have a fucking conversation about women and sexual trauma without an avalanche of “But”s.

This incident was awful, end of. These women were travelling home during a pandemic, likely a stressful and upsetting time as it is. They are then marched off a plane and ordered around with no explanation; and with no idea of what would happen to them if they don’t comply. That is terrible and should be roundly condemned.

Why do people always pop up on these threads trying to justify or turn attention away from this?

“But it’s legal in this country”. I don’t give a shit, I can still find it abhorrent. Plus given we’re in the middle of a global pandemic these women didn’t exactly have a lot of choices on where to transit through to get home.

“But it was a medical procedure!” Oh I’m sure that’s fine then, that makes a coerced, unexplained, invasive examination all OK then?

“But they were trying to find the mother!” Yes and we can all still express disgust that it was apparently deemed quicker and easier to set up and perform invasive internal exams over the multiple other, non-invasive ways of finding a recently postpartum mother.

“But you haven’t condemned literally every other instance of sexual assault or sketchy ME country ethics; so you’re not allowed to condemn this one”. Piss off with your Whataboutery.

Totally agree with this.

I will never set foot, or even transition through, many Middle Eastern countries due to their attitudes towards women. Wankers the lot of them.

It might be legal but it is appalling. What on earth is happening in 2020. I feel that women’s rights, safety etc are going backwards.

@Dyrne thank you for your post. I can't believe some of the posts on here.

Having daughters and granddaughters living in Qatar I wouldn't believe everything you read about no rights for women in the country.

As like everywhere is the world you have to abide by the rules in that country - Australia is complicit in strip searching children as mentioned above, Britain have no problems stopping and searching people in their 'profiling' agenda, USA seem to think that owning and using guns are the answer to every question or thought that you disagree with. There doesn't seem to be any outrage with regard to India and the raping and murdering of toddler girls or girls or women of any age.

The baby is in hospital, the mother 'apparently' hasn't been found, this happened at the beginning at the month and seeming only one person has spoken out - so far as I can see, at the moment.

I'm suspicious that something else is going on that we - as the general public - are being deflected from.

Qatar is not Saudi or UAE, it has big influences from Britain and hosts, along with Bahrain and Kuwait approx 28,000 USA service personnel - so Trump's get the terrorists out from Qatar and blockade it to drive them out is laughable.

I am not condoning any intimate examinations without consent, or any bad treatment with regard to any women in any part of the world, but I don't think this one unclear incident is any indication of the 'normal' treatment of women in Qatar.