Friend said they're planning to break Covid rules..

[ThoroughlyForumed]

I was visiting a close friend yesterday evening (all fine in my location at the moment). We got to chatting about Christmas plans and what we would do 'if' rules changed or were upped in our area.
Luckily for me my family is a neat 6 so as long as we stay in medium we can celebrate together but obviously would change the plan if anything changed. Her family is a larger 11 and she very candidly just said they were all planning to celebrate together regardless of what rules are in place then. I sort of shrugged it off at the time as I didnt want to start a hypothetical argument but AIBU for being secretly pissed off with her for being so cavalier with Covid rules?

raindrops

I agree, Thats my thinking

But there maybe a reason why thats not possible

A lot of people are breaking rules, even in supermarkets with the 2 metre distance and the school drop off. The government will no doubt break rules behind closed doors anyway, as has been proven. What got me is that they allowed those who hunt (closely linked to the government) to meet in groups of more than six, which isn’t necessary but imposed restrictions on members of the public meeting friends/family. We haven’t broken any rules and don’t intend to.

@WaxOnFeckOff

If they're not, the NHS is struggling where you are - the best thing we can do to help the NHS is to try to stop the spread of Covid.

It's nothing to do with Covid. It's mismanagement and using Covid as an excuse or distraction.

The whole Covid thing is now just fucking nonsense. 7 months down and still no effective management strategy , the initial lock down was to prevent the NHS being overrun. It wasn't but fair enough. What we are doing now is all about face saving, control and who knows what else.

If you think the NHS isn't coping now, how do you think it will cope where you are if you add a fresh outbreak of Covid into the mix? It certainly isn't going to get any better...

Everyone should be entitled to the basic care required to keep them alive

Are they? Thats a bonkers statement. Everyone should be afforded the appropriate care for their health condition and wishes.

You do know that the vast majority of people who died were already on a DNR don't you?

I don't know any actual elderly people who would rather spend what might be their final months in isolation and not living a life with little quality.

@Hylyma1234

A lot of people are breaking rules, even in supermarkets with the 2 metre distance and the school drop off. The government will no doubt break rules behind closed doors anyway, as has been proven. What got me is that they allowed those who hunt (closely linked to the government) to meet in groups of more than six, which isn’t necessary but imposed restrictions on members of the public meeting friends/family. We haven’t broken any rules and don’t intend to.

Another ridiculous exemption is business lunches are OK. It's still mixing with different households indoors, but apparently all fine. This government is a shitshow, but the moment we all start behaving like Dominic Cummings and picking which rules to follow is the moment we fall apart.

Well over 50% of NHS staff were twiddling their thumbs during the actual epidemic as they had nothing to do. That's not to take away from the ones that were working their socks off, it's just the reality. Then in my area over the summer there were no cases at all for months. The covid wards were closed, but still services didn't resume, it's just atrocious mismanagement by all involved but they get away with now blaming the public for not washing our hands enough, or not distancing enough or whatever else is now our fault.

The long read in today's Sunday Times explains this, and the facts are shameful. Basically the elderly were cleared out of hospitals and denied admission and even basic care to make way for younger people who would have more chances of survival. However in the cases of many hospitals, these beds weren't filled with the younger people because they didn't need admitting in the anticipated numbers, while the elderly died quietly at home, denied even basic care. This is why the proportion of elderly in the hospital admissions graphs dropped off so dramatically in April, and then climbed again in June.

In a disease which overwhelmingly affects the elderly, they were the ones who were denied care, while some hospitals weren't even near capacity and the Nightingale Hospitals were never even intended to be used.

The government's entire approach to this pandemic has been to hide the shit state of the NHS and public health, and to avoid politically damaging scenes like the ones which came out of Bergamo (which ironically we were shown repeatedly to frighten us into compliance).

This is the government that the UK electorate keeps voting in.

I'm afraid it's behind the paywall though

www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/revealed-how-elderly-paid-price-of-protecting-nhs-from-covid-19-7n62kkbtb

Can't believe people are still falling for the protect the nhs shit...the nightingales weren't even used were they?!

@Hercwasonaroll

Also a teenager I have contact with killed themselves. Another 2 require mental health hospital care due to the effects of lockdown. Numerous others needing mental health support which they are struggling to access. Not blaming the NHS but lockdown isn't without consequence.

But this isn’t lockdown. In most places, except tier 3, you can go to work, shops and restaurants and gyms are open. You can meet friends outside. And STILL people won’t follow the rules. This leads to increased transmission, is liklely to lead to tighter restrictions, is like to impact hospitals and other routine treatments including those for cancer and mental health. The restrictions aren’t for fun, to stop a few ‘old’ or ‘vulnerable’ people dying. They are to ensure that the limited (fucked over by years of cuts) resources we have are protected.

I hate this government with a passion. I totally agree schools should be made safer. I agree that the rules don’t always make sense and are badly explained and managed. However I’ve read all the sage reports and hearing from those in the NHS who are literally begging us to think about our actions makes me do what I can for them.

@WaxOnFeckOff

Everyone should be entitled to the basic care required to keep them alive

Are they? Thats a bonkers statement. Everyone should be afforded the appropriate care for their health condition and wishes.

You do know that the vast majority of people who died were already on a DNR don't you?

I don't know any actual elderly people who would rather spend what might be their final months in isolation and not living a life with little quality.

I said entitled to the basic care, not that they would have the basic care forced upon them. If someone is of sound mind and wishes to opt-out and have a DNR in place, that's their right.

What I am saying is no one should die from cancer or suicide (as has been mentioned in this thread) because treatment was withheld or delayed. We have a duty to ensure everyone can access life-preserving treatments.

@formerbabe

Can't believe people are still falling for the protect the nhs shit...the nightingales weren't even used were they?!

Can’t believe some people think the NHS isn’t struggling tbh. But embarrassing really.... maybe read this thread to educate yourself... www.mumsnet.com/Talk/coronavirus/4059125-pressure-on-frontline-nhs-staff

Not sure I understand the parameters surrounding 'AIBU to judge/secretly feel 'X, Y, & Z'/, or to think whatever. In any of these cases, no, YABU. You can think exactly what you like. Where I would start to raise questions surrounds indulging in dickish behaviour like reporting people or accosting them in supermarkets for some perceived breach.

This thread does set me thinking, though, about the unbelievable pressure Christmas seems to exert over people and the hard work and conventional obligations it brings with it. This might bring about a changed attitude for the future on my part. My favourite holiday by far has always been Easter!

If you think the NHS isn't coping now, how do you think it will cope where you are if you add a fresh outbreak of Covid into the mix? It certainly isn't going to get any better...

Because it's not the same staff in the main. Because it's now the season for respiratory illness so hospitals will be busier but we have no figures that tell us whether actual admissions are higher or not. We still don't have any figures on how many are actually dying from covid and how many simply have a positive PCR test in the last month. Because having a positive test doesn't mean that you have covid or are infectious or that's why you are in hospital or that's why you have died.

I'm not sure why you think that being busier in these wards should have any effect on mental health treatment or cancer diagnosis or treatment and why that is the public's fault?

A DNR is not something that is always the choice of the patient.

What I am saying is that the majority would not be given an ICU bed regardless as they are already in a condition that that would not be beneficial, covid or not.

The NHS is always struggling but funnily enough until Covid, no-one has ever just blamed the public for catching an infectious disease or going to visit their granny and giving her a cold/the flu/whatever.

My DH is a nurse and an NHS employee and currently in and out of hospitals every day.

@WaxOnFeckOff

If you think the NHS isn't coping now, how do you think it will cope where you are if you add a fresh outbreak of Covid into the mix? It certainly isn't going to get any better...

Because it's not the same staff in the main. Because it's now the season for respiratory illness so hospitals will be busier but we have no figures that tell us whether actual admissions are higher or not. We still don't have any figures on how many are actually dying from covid and how many simply have a positive PCR test in the last month. Because having a positive test doesn't mean that you have covid or are infectious or that's why you are in hospital or that's why you have died.

I'm not sure why you think that being busier in these wards should have any effect on mental health treatment or cancer diagnosis or treatment and why that is the public's fault?

If the public don't attempt to block the transmission of Covid by minimising their risk (no unnecessary journeys, social distancing, obeying rule of 6 etc), then you're right, I do blame the public for the spread of Covid. We're not being asked to make huge sacrifices here, just stand 2m apart and if not exempt, wear a mask on our faces and not on our bloody chins.

Whilst I agree different staff are dealing with Covid and, say, cancer, if you introduce Covid into a cancer ward, you're in serious trouble. As you've pointed out, Covid can be asymptomatic in some people, and that's why the prospect of it spreading into a cancer ward is terrifying. As soon as it starts affecting people who aren't asymptomatic... that's the ward shut down. That's a whole bunch of patients whose treatment is stopped whilst they're tested, and whose surgery or chemo gets delayed because they can't go ahead with a positive Covid result.

I do think that there is such a thing as obeying the spirit rather than the letter of the law.

If I were in the UK, I would be happy to avoid big gatherings and other risky situations, but I would not be sitting there earnestly totting up the exact number of human beings in a room at any given moment, or doing bloody stupid things like visiting both sets of grandparents "in tandem" (how is that any different?) and then saying "See! Technically I wasn't in a room with more than six people at once!"

The NHS is always struggling but funnily enough until Covid, no-one has ever just blamed the public for catching an infectious disease or going to visit their granny and giving her a cold/the flu/whatever.

Exactly this! People really need to ask themselves why they prefer to blame human interaction rather than government incompetence. Normal human interaction which is essential for a functioning and healthy society.

If the public don't attempt to block the transmission of Covid by minimising their risk (no unnecessary journeys, social distancing, obeying rule of 6 etc), then you're right, I do blame the public for the spread of Covid. We're not being asked to make huge sacrifices here, just stand 2m apart and if not exempt, wear a mask on our faces and not on our bloody chins.

I guess that depends where you live. We have a 7 day figure of around 60 per 100k but have the equivalent of Tier 3 with bells on and have had increased restrictions for months now. In our area of nearly 100,000 people, we have had 1 death since May and about 30 odd in total. Yet I can't meet 2 friends for a walk, have anyone in my house, go for an evening meal, have an alcoholic drink etc etc. You really don't think that is restrictive and disproportionate?

They do factor it into their planning. They employ social/behavioral scientists. Not sure why you think they wouldn't.

If they employ "social/behavioral scientists" then those social/behavioral scientists deserve to be sacked, because this pandemic has been handled appallingly right from the start in the UK.

DH has a tooth that is now crumbling away to nothing that he doesn't just want extracted as it affects the fit of his plate that we've just shelled out £3k on. No dentist treatment available. DS lost his glasses in February and has only just now managed to get a test and new glasses.

When 99.9 whatever of the population don't have an infection that the vast majority will be absolutely fine if they catch?

@UntamedWisteria

YABU. Christmas is still a fair way off, and the government has said they may think of relaxing the rule of 6 for this time anyway.

Oh. And why? Because Covid knows it's Christmas?

They need to abolish the rules immediately, not wait until Christmas. Though they are presumably hoping to pick up a few votes by "letting" us have a "normal" Christmas.

I personally don't give a stuffed turkey about Christmas, but I do want to be able to work again, which I can't do while things are as they are.

This has to be the most useless and incompetent government in living memory.

And I say this as a former Conservative voter.

No one gives a shit about the rules

You're right, in MN they don't seem to, it's far removed from RL.

She has realized what most people know and that is that the virus cannot count to 6. You don’t think you’re going to be immune from catching anything because there are 6 of you versus her group of 11, do you? If they are all family and no one has any health issues then let them enjoy Christmas together. They’re adults. Let them make their own decisions on their health.

I'm in Tier 3 area and you're advised not to go into or out of the area. I work in a secondary school so already at an increased risk of catching COVID. I know of 4 colleagues who've gone off on holiday for half term, all to lower tier areas. One to London, one to the Lakes, one to the SW, and one has flown abroad to the Canaries.

Apparently they all need to get away, "and anyway, they're only guidelines, it's not legislation."

It's not what I'd do. And most people I know. But plenty are doing it. So with regards to Christmas, whatever rules are in place are going to be ignored by a large number of people, Tier 3 or no Tier 3.

It's not what I'd do.

Yes, you do you. No-one is forcing you to go away, you are perfectly at liberty to make the decisions you feel are right for you and your family, as are they. On the other hand, people who want to isolate don't see themselves as selfish but accuse people who are happy to be out and about, helping local economy etc of being selfish for wanting to go out for dinner.

That said, @WaxOnFeckOff, I do wonder how comfortable hospitality staff working in lower tier areas feel about higher tier guests coming in to their area. Not just hospitality staff either. Locals generally.