John Leslie - AIBU to agree that men accused of sexual assault should have anonymity until charged?

[FauxFurCoatAndBigKnickers]

Having 3 sons myself (and a daughter), cases like this are really worrying as people will always think ‘there’s no smoke without fire’.

I don’t understand why John Leslie didn’t sue the arse off that jibbering imbecile Wright or why Jonsson started the witch hunt then refused to speak out. That was what started off all the rest of the allegations and if, as it seems, he is entirely innocent, it is a disgusting travesty and has totally ruined his life.

Non DM link below:
www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.standard.co.uk/news/crime/john-leslie-trial-not-guilty-a4572176.html%3famp

[quote Hearnoevilspeaknoevil]@overTheRubicon.
Agree totally re character witnesses. I almost got my fingers burnt earlier this year when approached by an ex colleague. I refused. Another colleague agreed, only seeing what we knew. A nice guy. Good colleague etc etc.
He was accused of assault using weapons. So not the same as John Leslie. She has subsequently found that he has form. And is now furiously retracting. Thankfully case postponed owing to covid otherwise, her reference would have been submitted.
Character references should be banned.
Point is. How well do we know anyone?[/quote]

Yep. Shanann Watts thought Chris Watts was the best thing to ever happen to her. Not one person in his past or in his life had believed he could be violent. You don't know anyone 100%.

@FauxFurCoatAndBigKnickers

Again, so why have women he previously worked with defended him in court? It’s not as if that would help their public profile is it?

You obviously think this is a 'gotcha' point as you keep repeating it, but it makes zero sense to me.

So because a man did not assault some women, and was indeed quite gentlemanly and chivalrous towards them, that means he could not possibly have assauted other women? Not even Harvey Weinstein assaulted every woman he met.

All should have anonymity until proven guilty. Only way to prevent trial by media.

@Mollyboom

I know it may not be a popular opinion on Mumsnet but some women do make false and malicious allegations of rape. Statements such as I've taught my sons not to rape are all well and good until a false accusation is made and then the complainant's phone will be invaluable to the defence team.

Why do people always trot this out on these threads? Not one person on this thread has claimed women never made false accusations.

I know it may not be a popular opinion on Mumsnet but some women do make false and malicious allegations of rape.

From the CPS own figures - 0.62 percent of accusations are false. We already established this.

That means 99.38 percent of accusations are not false.

Statements such as I've taught my sons not to rape are all well and good until a false accusation is made and then the complainant's phone will be invaluable to the defence team.

Except they don't just look for messages that say "haha, I've just falsely accused Dave of rape". They also look at messages that show the victim had sex with Steve on the 1st of July and sent naked photos to Mark on the 7th of August, this naturally means she is promiscuous so poor Dave had no reason to think she did not also want to have sex with him on 9th November.

Exactly @IcedPurple my ex used to pretend to be new age man at work and then we’d come in from work and he’d demand ‘what’s for dinner’

Matthew Wright May be many things but he is not a) a gibbering idiot or b) a liar.

It was pages ago and I was going to say I kind of semi agree but then I read the post by @TheQuietWoman and I 100% agree

Teach your sons not to rape and they should be fine

How does that help them if somebody randomly decides to point the finger even if its not true?

Giving anonymity for this but not other crimes implies a higher likelihood that the accused is innocent/the alleged victim is lying than for other crimes. Why should someone accused of sexual assault get anonymity when an accused serial killer doesn’t? The implication - the accused sexual criminal is more likely to be innocent.

Disagree, and do you know just HOW many women have accused him over the years but it’s not come to anything because it’s so hard to prove historic attacks.
He’s a fecking creep, and if he is ‘innocent’ this time - which I doubt - then at least women know to give him a wide berth.

How does that help them if somebody randomly decides to point the finger even if its not true?

Once again, CPS have stated - using their own facts and figures - that only 0.62% of rape accusations are false.

In short: there is more chance of a man being a victim of rape than being a victim of a false rape accusation.

All should have anonymity until proven guilty.

I presume you would also like this extended to all crimes?

They shouldn't be named unless found guilty.
Too many men's lives have been ruined due to false allegations.

Too many men's lives have been ruined due to false allegations.

Yes, all 0.62% of the men accused.

@Kolsch

They shouldn't be named unless found guilty. Too many men's lives have been ruined due to false allegations.

Can you name some of those men? And in what way were their lives ruined?

How does that help them if somebody randomly decides to point the finger even if its not true

But that’s true of all of us all the time. Anyone we meet could falsely accuse us of something terrible if they were mad or bad enough. The fact that it almost never happens is because false and baseless accusations of any crime are vanishingly rare, but particularly of rape. As the CPS’s own stats show.

@Mollyboom
I know it may not be a popular opinion on Mumsnet but some women do make false and malicious allegations of rape.

It’s nothing to do with it not being a ‘popular opinion’ it’s due to the fact it’s very very rare, and a drop in the ocean compared with the number of women raped and sexually assaulted each year.

I can’t believe the number of people on this thread guffawing at the concept of teaching their sons about consent. It’s so important for all humans to understand this.

@Mollyboom

I know it may not be a popular opinion on Mumsnet but some women do make false and malicious allegations of rape. Statements such as I've taught my sons not to rape are all well and good until a false accusation is made and then the complainant's phone will be invaluable to the defence team.

We know that. We also know that men make false allegations, such as those who accused Louis Walsh and Paul Gambacini, and the man who accused MPs. We also know that men are more likely to be raped by other men than they are to have a false allegation made against them by a woman. We also know that men commit 98% of sexual violence yet we never hear them admit to it. They LIE. Every woman knows a victim of male sexual violence but somehow men never seem to know a rapist.

And after all this, it is only women whose default seems to be liar.

Because anything on a phone is completely irrelevant to the issue of consent. You can be as up for it as it’s possible to be, sending nudes and sexting and all sorts. But if you get in his bedroom and suddenly he wants to do something to you that you don’t want him to do - you can withdraw consent there and then. And if he ignores it, he’s a rapist. Whatever you texted to him half an hour earlier means fuck all.

This with all the fucking bells and whistles on.

Until we get past the myths surrounding rape, our conviction rate will remain pathetic.

Article in the Guardian
www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2020/oct/19/leslie-verdict-comes-almost-two-decades-after

Daisy Coleman commited suicide in August. She was the woman who was raped as a teenager by a group of teenage boys from her school. At the time a lot of people were sympathetic towards the boys because 'their lives have been ruined' .

But of course everyone always sides with the woman...

I’m inclined to agree that alleged rapists should have anonymity. The way it is at the moment, if someone stands trial for rape their reputation is tarnished for ever, regardless of the outcome of the trial.

And I’m speaking as a rape victim.

I was raped when I was 18 (I was abducted by a stranger when I was on holiday) and I didn’t give any thought to the matter of my attacker’s anonymity during the legal process. In fact, I still don’t know whether his identity was made public before his conviction (it was in a different country and I'm not sure what the rules were). I did feel though, very strongly, that there was no reason for my own identity to be hidden. The way I saw it, I had done nothing wrong and had nothing to be ashamed of. I actually think it would have helped me to have been treated in the same way as the victim of any other assault, without the hushed tones and secrecy. Admittedly, my own case was pretty clear cut and I was lucky that it went to court and a conviction was achieved. If my attacker had been someone I knew, perhaps I would have felt differently about my own anonymity. But regardless of the ‘type’ of rape, I think the alleged attacker should be anonymous.

@gluteustothemaximus

Because anything on a phone is completely irrelevant to the issue of consent. You can be as up for it as it’s possible to be, sending nudes and sexting and all sorts. But if you get in his bedroom and suddenly he wants to do something to you that you don’t want him to do - you can withdraw consent there and then. And if he ignores it, he’s a rapist. Whatever you texted to him half an hour earlier means fuck all.

This with all the fucking bells and whistles on.

Until we get past the myths surrounding rape, our conviction rate will remain pathetic.

And it's so tiring when people pretend it is confusing for men, or the poor dears were given mixed signals, or she led him on. My children are all under ten and they know when they play that when one person says STOP, or one person is not enjoying themselves, it's over.