John Leslie - AIBU to agree that men accused of sexual assault should have anonymity until charged?

[FauxFurCoatAndBigKnickers]

Having 3 sons myself (and a daughter), cases like this are really worrying as people will always think ‘there’s no smoke without fire’.

I don’t understand why John Leslie didn’t sue the arse off that jibbering imbecile Wright or why Jonsson started the witch hunt then refused to speak out. That was what started off all the rest of the allegations and if, as it seems, he is entirely innocent, it is a disgusting travesty and has totally ruined his life.

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@Kolsch

They shouldn't be named unless found guilty. Too many men's lives have been ruined due to false allegations.

Name ten men who have had their lives ruined by false allegations. I’ll wait.

Do you want me to name ten men who’ve got away with rape due to a technicality?

@SnapSnapDragon

I’m inclined to agree that alleged rapists should have anonymity. The way it is at the moment, if someone stands trial for rape their reputation is tarnished for ever, regardless of the outcome of the trial.

And I’m speaking as a rape victim.

I was raped when I was 18 (I was abducted by a stranger when I was on holiday) and I didn’t give any thought to the matter of my attacker’s anonymity during the legal process. In fact, I still don’t know whether his identity was made public before his conviction (it was in a different country and I'm not sure what the rules were). I did feel though, very strongly, that there was no reason for my own identity to be hidden. The way I saw it, I had done nothing wrong and had nothing to be ashamed of. I actually think it would have helped me to have been treated in the same way as the victim of any other assault, without the hushed tones and secrecy. Admittedly, my own case was pretty clear cut and I was lucky that it went to court and a conviction was achieved. If my attacker had been someone I knew, perhaps I would have felt differently about my own anonymity. But regardless of the ‘type’ of rape, I think the alleged attacker should be anonymous.

I wouldn't have wanted random people to know I was sexually assaulted but that's just me.

Sorry for what happened to you .

I have a son. I have absolutely no concerns about him being falsely accused of rape or murder. False accusations are exceptionally rare and he would have to be extremely unlucky for this to happen to him. Date rape and sexual assault are not so rare, and I worry myself sick about my daughter’s safety.

Also, you don’t understand why Leslie didn’t sue? Think harder. YABU.

Years before the Ulrika Jonsson thing, a bloke I was at Uni with had a very interesting story about his ex-gf and John Leslie when he was appearing in panto or something in T. Wells.

Thanks for the flowers @EveryPlanetHasAYorkshire, that's kind.

I'm pretty sure I would have expected to feel as you (not wanting random people to know) but when it did happen to me I found that people's reactions to the news made things so much worse, e.g. not meeting my eye, not talking about it. It seemed to me that other people felt I should be ashamed, which is why I reacted by wanting people to know. Sounds strange I expect

Name ten men who have had their lives ruined by false allegations. I’ll wait.

There are a couple of names who are always tossed out over and over on these threads to prove how it ruins mens lives. Except when you actually read the full story and not just the click baity headline it's actually pretty clear none of them were proven to be false accusations. It's also clear if you actually read the articles that their lives being 'ruined' wasn't a result of the accusation and was in actual fact a lot more complex than that.

I'm not going to name those men here but if that poster comes back I know for a fact which men they will use to prove that 'false accusations ruin lives'.

I'll wait.

0.62% of the total number of reports is still a lot of false accusations. Look I'm not defending the abysmal conviction rates for rape and there are rules about admissibility of evidence so that material about a complainant's sexual history ought not be admitted. It will be looked at yes ,as the defence will look at everything but it won't necessarily be allowed to be used in court- there is a difference- but it is crucial for those thousands of people who are wrongfully accused they be allowed access to any material evidence.

to the PP's who "worked in the industry" and knew that him and others were predatory , why did you do nothing ?
Your silence allowed this behaviour.

and that of the more famous guilty.

be brave and name the "others" or has #metoo ended/

but it is crucial for those thousands of people who are wrongfully accused they be allowed access to any material evidence.

What a weird thing to say.

False allegations of rape are no higher than any other crime. No other criminal suspects who have been charged have anonymity. The only reason people think accused rapists should have anonymity is because they believe women lie.

The way it is at the moment, if someone stands trial for rape their reputation is tarnished for ever, regardless of the outcome of the trial.

Except its not. Men who rape, sexually assault, or sexually harass women are very often forgiven, have their accounts believed over that of their victims, or are allowed to "move on" because we have to "separate the man/artist from the mistakes".

Mike Tyson, Ched Evans, Roman Polanski, Bryan Singer, Woody Allen, James Franco, Marcelo Gomes, Tupac Shakur, Mystikal, Jim Morrison, Sean Penn, Casey Affleck, R Kelly, Alfred Hitchcock, Marlon Brando, Dr Luke, Charlie Sheen, Donald Trump. I could go on but, honestly, I'd be here all night.

The list of women whose careers and reputations have survived being a victim of rape is far shorter.

What do they have to gain by standing up for a sex predator?

Ask those who've stood by Roman Polanski for decades - convicted child rapist, fled before sentencing, still allowed and praised for his work.

Ask those who've stood by Woody Allen. Ask those who stood by with Jimmy Saville for years before his death, some who continued to do so afterwards.

The list goes on - creative industries, like many others, aren't exactly known for defending victims of rape and other forms of violence and abuse. The benefits are up for debate, but there is a huge precedent for it happening.

All human beings are potential murderers. I hope you’re all teaching your sons and daughters not to murder.

Yes, having survived an attempted murder situation, I think it's important to discuss with kids that anyone can be violent and how to handle violent emotions.

From what I've read (and I know the research on the topic all over the place), the rate of false accusations for rape is similar to rates of false accusations for most other crimes. Just as no other crimes give the accused anonymity unless there are extenuating circumstances, it applies here.

I think the issues of social media mob justice, which applies to many suspects wrongs, I think are separate and don't outweigh the benefits others have listed in helping others come forward when someone is accused.

Charming Lynsey. So a poor woman who is raped but doesn’t name her rapist is too blame rather than Mathew Wright? I really hope you never have the misfortune to be raped and then have other people call you names. No wonder we don’t bother reporting our rapes with attitudes like yours.

I'm not going to name those men here but if that poster comes back I know for a fact which men they will use to prove that 'false accusations ruin lives'.

I know. I’m still waiting, but I know exactly who those examples will be.

0.62% of the total number of reports is still a lot of false accusations

Approximately 57,000 reports a year means approximately 353 are false. That is not a lot. The 56,647 true accusations? That's a lot. CPS also acknowledge that some of the 353 "false" accusations may also be lying about having lied about the rape.

John Leslie came to my wedding reception- I didn’t invite him he was there as someone’s ‘plus one’. He was a fucking sleaze and I wasn’t remotely surprised when his name was leaked as Ulrika Johnson’s rapist.
At the time she had a higher profile and a lot more to lose by a public court case. I can totally understand why she wouldn’t want to put herself or her family through that. I remember the papers at the time, she was referred to as a 4x4 because she had 4 children by different fathers. It was disgusting as is today’s verdict but I’m not surprised. Lots of idiots still think of him as that nice chap who went out with Catherine Zeta Jones.

I agree with you, although I'd extend it to all crimes. Innocent until proven guilty, nobody should have their reputation ruined for a false allegation/mistaken identity or whatever.

In this age of the Internet, every employer, neighbour, person you meet can Google you and nobody should have those allegations attached to their name unless proven in a court of law. It puts people's livelihoods and lives in danger.

The attitudes of some people on this thread - that every person accused or charged must be guilty - is exactly why anonymity until conviction needs to be introduced.

I'm another who was raped & the case didn't get to court. All because I had the misfortune to be married to the man who raped me. He got away without a blot on his character, I'm the one left with CPTSD still 10 years on. There should be an investigation why the conviction rates for rape are so low.

You forgot Weinstein @BiBabbles. So many people stood - and still stand - by him, even though they know he is a rapist and sexual predator.

Way more men rape and sexually assault women and get away with it then men who are falsely accused.

I've been raped twice OP. Didn't report either time. So there's two rapes right there that aren't on your crime stats. Most women don't report their rapes.

The attitudes of some people on this thread - that every person accused or charged must be guilty - is exactly why anonymity until conviction needs to be introduced

Literally no one has said that.

I agree with you, although I'd extend it to all crimes. Innocent until proven guilty, nobody should have their reputation ruined for a false allegation/mistaken identity or whatever.

Refreshing to see you’re against peodophiles such as Saville, Glitter, Harris etc being named. Obviously that means that fewer people will come forward, reducing the likelihood of a conviction but who gives a shit about that?

You make a very good point @Gancanny and that is an impressive (or depressing) list. I'm not sure I could make a list of ten people who's lives have been ruined, but I'm thinking of those who are not famous, the college students and other young men I occasionally read about who were tried and found not guilty.

This is an interesting discussion and it's just occurred to me that I probably bring with me quite a strong bias in that I had a very good experience with the courts (if anything about that episode can be thought of as good) and perhaps I have more faith in the system than others do.

CPS also acknowledge that some of the 353 "false" accusations may also be lying about having lied about the rape

Yes

And it also covers (i think) mistaken identity, in that the woman was raped but there is confusion about who by etc