John Leslie - AIBU to agree that men accused of sexual assault should have anonymity until charged?

[FauxFurCoatAndBigKnickers]

Having 3 sons myself (and a daughter), cases like this are really worrying as people will always think ‘there’s no smoke without fire’.

I don’t understand why John Leslie didn’t sue the arse off that jibbering imbecile Wright or why Jonsson started the witch hunt then refused to speak out. That was what started off all the rest of the allegations and if, as it seems, he is entirely innocent, it is a disgusting travesty and has totally ruined his life.

Non DM link below:
www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.standard.co.uk/news/crime/john-leslie-trial-not-guilty-a4572176.html%3famp

'What are all men doing to stop sexual assaults?'

This ridiculous statement is sometimes used as a perceived 'trump card' in discussions in which it is bordering on irrelevant, such as this one about presumption of guilt.

All men don't have to 'stop sexual assaults'. However there are a lot of men employed by the police, CPS, legal firms etc who do plenty about it.

The only thing 'all men' have to do to stop sexual assault is to act honourably in their own lives, set a good example and do their own jobs to the best of their ability and pay taxes, which then go to pay for specific men and women who do try to stop them.

This statement is going down that rabbit hole where all citizens have to positively intervene against every 'ism' going, or be guilty of it themselves by default. I suspect, using that reasoning, all the wealthy white women on here are not doing enough to prevent modern slavery, child labour in the third world etc etc.

Really? Not on gender? So those male-dominated environments are just because those particular men happened to be better than any other women?

Who said that - I said I appointed on merit and as a result have a very balance workplace.
Oh sorry - you don’t like ‘balance’ .

@larrygrylls

'What are all men doing to stop sexual assaults?'

This ridiculous statement is sometimes used as a perceived 'trump card' in discussions in which it is bordering on irrelevant, such as this one about presumption of guilt.

All men don't have to 'stop sexual assaults'. However there are a lot of men employed by the police, CPS, legal firms etc who do plenty about it.

The only thing 'all men' have to do to stop sexual assault is to act honourably in their own lives, set a good example and do their own jobs to the best of their ability and pay taxes, which then go to pay for specific men and women who do try to stop them.

This statement is going down that rabbit hole where all citizens have to positively intervene against every 'ism' going, or be guilty of it themselves by default. I suspect, using that reasoning, all the wealthy white women on here are not doing enough to prevent modern slavery, child labour in the third world etc etc.

It’s a statement which points out how ridiculous it is to say NAMALT, particularly when your example of that is because you personally have never experienced harassment in your own ‘male-dominated’ environment.

@StoneofDestiny

Really? Not on gender? So those male-dominated environments are just because those particular men happened to be better than any other women?

Who said that - I said I appointed on merit and as a result have a very balance workplace.
Oh sorry - you don’t like ‘balance’ .

You said that:

Well pumper oddly enough, colleagues are appointed on merit, not gender,

If people aren’t hired on gender how can workplaces ever be male-dominated? Unless you’re suggesting that all men are fundamentally better than all women.

This was in response to me asking why environments are male-dominated, which you brought up then complained that the discussion was being derailed.

Pumper,

It isn't. You cannot twist the words to mean something that they don't; words have actual real meanings.

You are claiming that all men need to 'stop sexual assaults', and I am challenging that statement.

This statement is going down that rabbit hole where all citizens have to positively intervene against every 'ism' going, or be guilty of it themselves by default. I suspect, using that reasoning, all the wealthy white women on here are not doing enough to prevent modern slavery, child labour in the third world etc etc.

And actually, you’re right here - we’re not doing enough about those things. But similarly women aren’t regularly shutting down any discussion of modern slavery with ‘well, not everyone uses slaves’.

@larrygrylls

Pumper,

It isn't. You cannot twist the words to mean something that they don't; words have actual real meanings.

You are claiming that all men need to 'stop sexual assaults', and I am challenging that statement.

I don’t know what this means. They do have to. Why would you challenge that?

Pumper,

I would challenge it as we all have specific roles in society. We have gone beyond tribal society where everyone had to do everything. That is why we work in specific specialist roles and pay taxes.

What are you doing to stop child labour in India (for instance)? And if the answer is nothing, are you guilty of endorsing it by your lack of action?

And if the answer is nothing, are you guilty of endorsing it by your lack of action?

Yes. But it’s also not a particularly apt comparison because we don’t really have a culture where we can say, send emails laughing about child labour in India. Or draft in child labourers for our own entertainment. Or have people queuing up to absolve us of blame for using child labour.

So on one hand we have, yes, we are not doing enough but on the other we have denial and NAChildLabourorsALT.

If people aren’t hired on gender how can workplaces ever be male-dominated? Unless you’re suggesting that all men are fundamentally better than all women Have you ever considered that there are some jobs that women don't particularly don't want to do.
I'd be fascinated to know what you do for a living Pumper.

@Aridane

Because anything on a phone is completely irrelevant to the issue of consent. You can be as up for it as it’s possible to be, sending nudes and sexting and all sorts. But if you get in his bedroom and suddenly he wants to do something to you that you don’t want him to do - you can withdraw consent there and then. And if he ignores it, he’s a rapist. Whatever you texted to him half an hour earlier means fuck all

But actually if half an hour later, you text to say what an amazing time you had and suggest meeting up again, of course that’s relevant to the defence!

I was gang raped. I text a friend after the event telling her it had been consensual group sex. I didn't tell her I had been unconscious for the majority of it.

Coming to terms with something so awful happening to you can take time. I still haven't told her that it didn't happen as my pride initially claimed.

@derxa

If people aren’t hired on gender how can workplaces ever be male-dominated? Unless you’re suggesting that all men are fundamentally better than all women Have you ever considered that there are some jobs that women don't particularly don't want to do. I'd be fascinated to know what you do for a living Pumper.

We’ve already had this Derxa, read the thread. Name some other jobs women don’t want and why - a pp said STEM because women don’t like to get dirty.

Pumper you need to stop twisting stuff and calm yourself down. Start your own thread possibly as you’re so upset.

@Bluntness100

Pumper you need to stop twisting stuff and calm yourself down. Start your own thread possibly as you’re so upset.

Oh dear.

This statement is going down that rabbit hole where all citizens have to positively intervene against every 'ism' going, or be guilty of it themselves by default. I suspect, using that reasoning, all the wealthy white women on here are not doing enough to prevent modern slavery, child labour in the third world etc etc.

Not at all. I agree that men need to act honourably in their own lives, they also can not accept casual sexism, they can challenge porn culture, push back against the objectification of women in popular culture, challenge others who think it’s ok to comment on women’s appearance or sexuality. I know many men who are honourable in their own relationships who would be involved in discussions about the size of a woman’s breasts, or who would laugh along with a sexual joke etc.

It’s creating an environment where women aren’t seen as fair game, where sexual aggression is recognised for what it is. I don’t know anyone who thins child labour is ok or who would defend such practices. I can’t say the same for women’s rights.

Absolutely agree @Jellycatspyjamas

It is up to everyone to challenge a culture where the objectification of women is seen as normal or 'bantz'. Unfortunately, if you are a woman and raise objections, you are often seen as 'having no sense of humour' or 'being a man-hater'. A sexist man will not listen to womens' objections so we do, sadly, need men to stand up for us and call out bad behaviour as well. If the vast proportion of society was to condemn this behaviour (as with child labour, slavery, etc) then eventually it would be reduced.

I more or less stalked my attacker after he indecently assaulted me, because he'd previously been extremely lovely and kind and expressed such admiration and interest in my work (I now realise he was just pretending to try to get in my pants), and in my head if I could get back to that place of him being lovely and respectful towards me it would somehow cancel out the assault. That if our friendship got back on track, I'd be able to dismiss the assault as something he did because he was high on coke and not the real him.

I was abused as a child and I've always taken huge comfort and strength from my excellent survival instincts and for having the ability to sniff out potential predators, and only befriending and having relationships with decent kind people. I know that patterns repeat, and that statistically many abuse survivors end up attracting predators or repeating the same dysfunctional relationships they witnessed growing up. Having to confront the fact I'd been so disastrously wrong about this person was incredibly destabilising to my entire sense of self. I needed to believe I was a good judge of character in order to feel safe, so I needed to believe I'd not been so catastrophically wrong in liking and trusting this man.

Psychology is complex. People react in ways that appear strange from the outside.

Jelly,

You have conflated a lot there, some I agree with and some I don’t.

Challenging porn culture, especially violent porn-absolutely! I have already explained to my sons (not teens yet) that a good sexual relationship should be a good friendship plus sex, not something weirdly ‘other’ and words like ‘drilling’, ‘using’ etc are entirely unacceptable in any context.

Objectification is a tough one. Beautiful bodies have been ‘objectified’ since antiquity, Add that to the monetisation of selling yourself as a sex object and it is tough to tell boys not to objectivise when, as my son has already noticed, the highest earning ‘Ticktocker’ basically dresses revealingly and twerks.

And it is interesting that UJ, as discussed on this thread has posed naked ‘to reclaim her body’. Nope, she hasn’t, she has objectivised herself for money, something that she has managed well over a number of years.

Jokes-again look at MN posts on certain films about men’s crotches and bulges. Objectivisation of body parts has become far evener between the sexes. And the many threads about why ‘less than 8 inches’ just ‘won’t do it’ for some women.

Society has become far cruder and short term, in many ways, and I don’t think that is good. And we should all do our bit to counteract it, but it is increasingly a ‘person’ problem and not just a male one.

We’ve already had this Derxa, read the thread. Name some other jobs women don’t want and why - a pp said STEM because women don’t like to get dirty. Thanks I've read it. There are jobs where you need greater physical strength. Why would women who are not strong want these jobs? I couldn't have been a fencer for instance even at my peak fitness and I have been very strong and fit.

@derxa

We’ve already had this Derxa, read the thread. Name some other jobs women don’t want and why - a pp said STEM because women don’t like to get dirty. Thanks I've read it. There are jobs where you need greater physical strength. Why would women who are not strong want these jobs? I couldn't have been a fencer for instance even at my peak fitness and I have been very strong and fit.

So? Presumably you also couldn’t have been an Olympic runner. It’s not all about you!

Can you think of a single job closed to all women because of their strength? I can’t. So we can assume it’s not because of that.

Society has become far cruder and short term, in many ways, and I don’t think that is good. And we should all do our bit to counteract it, but it is increasingly a ‘person’ problem and not just a male one.

And yet, we know that’s not true because it’s overwhelmingly men who carry out violent and sex-related crimes.

Can you think of a single job closed to all women because of their strength? I can’t. So we can assume it’s not because of that. I've just given you an example

@derxa

Can you think of a single job closed to all women because of their strength? I can’t. So we can assume it’s not because of that. I've just given you an example

Do you mean someone who builds fences, or someone who fights with a sword? Either way, not an example of professions closed completely to women. Can you think of one?

And we should all do our bit to counteract it, but it is increasingly a ‘person’ problem and not just a male one.

Give over. Only one sex is responsible for the sexual harassment, assaults, rapes, spousal murders etc in 95+% of cases.

Men are responsible not only for their own behaviour but also the behaviour they will accept from their peers.