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AIBU?

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Original poster

John Leslie - AIBU to agree that men accused of sexual assault should have anonymity until charged?

550 replies

FauxFurCoatAndBigKnickers · 19/10/2020 17:17

Having 3 sons myself (and a daughter), cases like this are really worrying as people will always think ‘there’s no smoke without fire’.

I don’t understand why John Leslie didn’t sue the arse off that jibbering imbecile Wright or why Jonsson started the witch hunt then refused to speak out. That was what started off all the rest of the allegations and if, as it seems, he is entirely innocent, it is a disgusting travesty and has totally ruined his life.

Non DM link below:
www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.standard.co.uk/news/crime/john-leslie-trial-not-guilty-a4572176.html%3famp

OP posts:
Gancanny · 20/10/2020 15:21

To conceive a child
To please a partner
Because it has a been a long time and you just feel you ought.
Because you have made a bet with your friend that you will have sex tonight.

And in every single one of those scenarios, both parties should be consenting.

Gancanny · 20/10/2020 15:22

Odd how it's almost always men who object to "enthusiastic consent" Hmm

GrolliffetheDragon · 20/10/2020 15:24

"But the 'other victims' could come forward if the man was found guilty and identified after the trial."

You're assuming they'll be found guilty.

larrygrylls · 20/10/2020 15:28

Gann,

'Odd how it's almost always men who object to "enthusiastic consent" hmm'

I suspect that is because most women don't seem to be able to imagine that men aren't always enthusiastic, and that an erection and orgasm does not imply that they are.

Gancanny · 20/10/2020 15:38

I suspect that is because most women don't seem to be able to imagine that men aren't always enthusiastic, and that an erection and orgasm does not imply that they are.

Given the overwhelming statistics showing which sex is more likely to be charged with sexual assault, I'll wager women are far more likely than men to understand the word "no".

If a man does not want to have sex with his partner then he can say no, he has the same right to withdraw consent as his partner.

larrygrylls · 20/10/2020 15:40

Gan,

'Given the overwhelming statistics showing which sex is more likely to be charged with sexual assault, I'll wager women are far more likely than men to understand the word "no".

If a man does not want to have sex with his partner then he can say no, he has the same right to withdraw consent as his partner.'

And your point is? You have addressed a couple of straw men, there, but nothing that I have actually posted.

MrsTerryPratchett · 20/10/2020 15:40

So, what you are trying to do here is to ask someone to prove they are innocent of a crime, reversing centuries of jurisprudence just in the case of this one crime.

No I'm not. Some contracts require something in writing. It doesn't mean I don't consent to sell you my house, just that a higher level is required for that transaction. Sex requires a clear yes. A simple lack of a no isn't consent.

Unless you routinely have sex with people who don't want to of course.

larrygrylls · 20/10/2020 15:49

'No I'm not. Some contracts require something in writing. It doesn't mean I don't consent to sell you my house, just that a higher level is required for that transaction. Sex requires a clear yes. A simple lack of a no isn't consent.'

'I have seen a really pretty diamond ring, I know it is quite expensive but it would be a mark of your respect for me'

'hmm, I am not sure I am comfortable with spending that much'

'please please, I would be so happy'

And so it goes on until, one day, the man decides it is just easier to buy the ring and he gives it to his gf for her birthday.

Is that theft? She has taken a ring off him that he has not 'enthusiastically given.

That is the implication of 'enthusiastic' consent, although I know that many here will say there is no analogy for sex (I would disagree, sex does not operate sui generis, unrelated to any other transaction between human beings).

And, no, your ad hominem attack leaves me very cold, despite the fact that it is against the site rules and common decency. I have never had sex with anyone who has not 'enthusiastically' consented. It does not mean I cannot see many flaws in the argument; it is possible to actually think outside one's own experience.

Gancanny · 20/10/2020 16:00

And, no, your ad hominem attack leaves me very cold, despite the fact that it is against the site rules and common decency

Where did she attack you?

MrsTerryPratchett · 20/10/2020 16:02

Reading you equate women's consent to sex with possessions leaves me cold. Utterly repulsive.

Gancanny · 20/10/2020 16:25

A survey by End Violence Against Women with around 4000 respondents showed there are still worrying beliefs around consent. For example, a third (33%) of the men asked didn’t think it could usually be considered rape if the
woman had flirted on a date then changed her mind (compared with 21% of women). The
same number also believe a woman can’t change her mind after sex has started.

Gancanny · 20/10/2020 16:34

There are also worrying trends with regard to consent during sex. There was a campaign by We Can't Consent To This who reported that 33% of the women under 40 who they surveyed had been choked, slapped, gagged, or spat on against their will during sex. They consented to sex but not violence or degradation.

CoolYourBeansMySon · 20/10/2020 16:45

@Gancanny

Pressed send too soon Blush

I remember from my single days so many men view "no" as a starting point for negotiations rather than the final answer and they don't view this as problematic even though it is part of the foundation of thought that underpins societal attitudes towards rape and consent. Plenty of men don't seem to realise that if a woman says no to them buying her a drink/giving them her phone number/going on a date, etc and they continue to pursue her then they're part of the view that coercion is okay, pressure is okay, and no means maybe. They're giving validation to that guy who doesn't stop at "can I buy you a drink?" and who takes it all the way to its horrible conclusion, they're reinforcing for him that it's okay to be a "player" and it's okay to pursue women because they all want it really, its just a matter of convincing them.

This is the story line of many a rom-com. Guy spends the whole film trying to woo someone not interested who falls into his arms at the end and they live happily ever after.

Has anyone seen Ulrika today? She's posted a naked selfie saying she's reclaiming her body and that reclaiming her mind may take longer. That's pointedly after yesterday's verdict. It must have open a lot of wounds for her.

Gancanny · 20/10/2020 16:50

This is the story line of many a rom-com. Guy spends the whole film trying to woo someone not interested who falls into his arms at the end and they live happily ever after

Isn't it though? And once you know that its so hard to try and think of a romantic film that isn't problematic in some way.

thedancingbear · 20/10/2020 16:52

Isn't it though? And once you know that its so hard to try and think of a romantic film that isn't problematic in some way.

I agree. The worst is Groundhog Day, where the plot literally bends the rules of space and time to pressure a woman into sex.

cologne4711 · 20/10/2020 16:54

There was a campaign by We Can't Consent To This who reported that 33% of the women under 40 who they surveyed had been choked, slapped, gagged, or spat on against their will during sex

What is wrong with men that they want to do this sort of thing Envy not envy!

StoneofDestiny · 20/10/2020 17:04

What is wrong with men that they want to do this sort of thing

some men - the overwhelming majority of men do not do that, wouldn’t think of it and would be as appalled as the majority of women at those who do.

EveryPlanetHasAYorkshire · 20/10/2020 17:05

@StoneofDestiny

What is wrong with men that they want to do this sort of thing

some men - the overwhelming majority of men do not do that, wouldn’t think of it and would be as appalled as the majority of women at those who do.

There's always one Grin.
Gancanny · 20/10/2020 17:10

We did quite well to get to page 13 before NAMALT arrived.

StoneofDestiny · 20/10/2020 17:28

NAMALT should have arrived sooner then

Gancanny · 20/10/2020 17:35

All the "NAMALT" handwringing does is derail the discussion, minimise the experiences of women, and centre the focus back onto men, because heaven forbid they not be at the forefront of everything.

No one on this thread has said all men. No one on this thread has said every man. No one actually believes it is all men or every man but it is enough men for men as a class to be problematic.

"NAMALT" implies men are uncomfortable with discussing misogyny and violence directed towards women. Why are they uncomfortable with that?

unmarkedbythat · 20/10/2020 17:44

@StoneofDestiny

What is wrong with men that they want to do this sort of thing

some men - the overwhelming majority of men do not do that, wouldn’t think of it and would be as appalled as the majority of women at those who do.

You know what, that they would be as appalled as most women just isn't true. Go and spend time in a male dominated space and discuss rape, or any kind of male on female violence. Listen to the jokes. Most men think they are not rapists, most men say rape is disgusting, most men think that women lying about it is at least as big an issue as men doing it. They really are not as appalled as most women.
derxa · 20/10/2020 17:55

Has anyone seen Ulrika today? She's posted a naked selfie saying she's reclaiming her body and that reclaiming her mind may take longer. That's pointedly after yesterday's verdict. It must have open a lot of wounds for her. Hmm

Cadent · 20/10/2020 17:57

Why the face @derxa?

PlanDeRaccordement · 20/10/2020 18:04

@Gancanny

Odd how it's almost always men who object to "enthusiastic consent" Hmm
I don’t object to “enthusiastic consent” but think it is completely unenforceable. How enthusiastic should a person be to indicate consent? How do you measure it? What does it look like?

Is it enough to kiss them back say yes or would passionate kissing, loud moans and cheering on my partner with “yes babe, do it, fuck me...etc” like a porn star now be required as proof I am enthusiastically consenting?

I just do not see how “enthusiastic” could be applied in any legal sense because it then devolves into a checklist of sexual actions a woman then has to perform to indicate enthusiastic consent. A simple Yes and if you later change you mind, a No is all it should take.