Sick of being told I'm black

[Notjustblackandwhite]

Just this really. On Friday a white friend asked me what I thought of racism in the UK as a black person. I'm mixed race, I'm not black. My mum is white and my father is black Brazilian, but it doesn't seem to matter and I frequently get called black ''for ease'', by white people.

I have nothing against the ''black'' part of my heritage, but I'm at most one or two shades darker than Meghan Markle, and I feel as though an identity is being forced upon me, similarly to how your name might get changed because x and y have decided that your name is too "ethnic" to pronounce. I'm getting more and more worked up over this, and recently someone decided to tell me that I was being racist for being dismissive of being black.

AIBU to think that is really grating and makes me want to punch people sometimes (metaphorically of course)?

In the US they'd be Hispanic (like me! ) But here I guess they're just plain white.

In the US, they can be Hispanic and white because we (officially that is) differentiate between race and ethnicity. Ethnicity is usually national origin in the US. So I am white and Scottish-American. Like most Americans, it's more than just Scottish, but I have a Scottish surname so that's what I put down when asked on forms.

And speaking of my Scottish surname, where I am from in the Southern US, it's also a common surname for many Black families.

Is that because slave owners had Scottish surnames? I know that's why two Scottish surnames are common in Jamaica.

I note that you have shared a pic of MM, even though she is incredible fair skinned and wears her hair straightened, she is NEVER referred to as being white. It's always highlighted that she is black or mixed race, depending on who is writing about it.

As i've said in my previous post, if someone isn't fully white/pure, then they are referred to as their other half/ethnciity. It's unfortunate but thats how life is. I don't even think these terms mean much or are natural, i'm pretty sure white and black terms were created to uphold whiteness. just my opinion

I should also add...one last thing! that black people come in all different shades. I know of black people with red hair and dark skin to very light skin and light eyes...in each case both have black parents. A lot of black people are actually mixed with other ethnicities for varying reasons.

I do want to somewhat shield any children I have from going through the experiences I did by while still telling them to be proud of their heritage I am reluctant to try to integrate them into a culture and community that will not accept them as much as my dm did with me

From what I hear from some sources, that's the biggest issue with mixed race - being perceived as being outside both sides of their heritage. I can't imagine what that feels like, to not be fully accepted as 'one of us' by both sides of your extended family.

It sounds like you are very much putting your children first, so I'm sure you won't go too far wrong.

Is that because slave owners had Scottish surnames?

Yes. But also post-slavery because of intermarriage between the races.

In some parts of the South, there were enslaved Africans who spoke Scottish Gaelic.

Of course, there were a lot of Scots immigrants who did not own slaves. And I think that the most prevalent Black surnames in the US are of English origin.

@senecafallsredux true but ethnicity is more cultural isn't it? I also think most Mexicans think were some shade of brown (not white) I don't consider myself white but here because I look white people don't even wonder what my race/ethnicity is.

but ethnicity is more cultural isn't it?

Yes, it is. And in the US, it is often heavily influenced by region. For example, one interesting thing about the Southern US is that white people and African Americans share a lot of cultural similarities, especially around food. African American families historically have often taken these cultural aspects with them when they migrate to other parts of the US. When I lived in Chicago and wanted a taste of Southern cuisine, I went to the Southside where there were (and are) many "soul food" restaurants.

I think that the OP is dot being unreasonable to be irritated by other people deciding for her what her racial identification is.

This is quite reasonable imv but now that there are requirements for quotas of ethnic minorities in work places, civil service etc etc what happens if all your mixed race staff say they are white - I agree this is a hypothetical situation but I think it's this that causes people now to class people when they probably didn't used to bother.
I think someone's accent places them more than skin colour, in fact there are requirements for eg the BBC to recruit more people with regional accents.

Well that's partly the thing. Some posters are saying it's about skin colour, but then talk about people whose skin is white, but whom they consider to be black as black because of their features. So already it's no longer just about skin colour.

There's also the part about culture. "Black culture" is something I hear quite often, and it is almost completely meaningless to me. Is there some kind of code of conduct for black people as a single entity? Is there a "white culture"? If there's a black culture party going on somewhere in the UK, then I've not been invited.

There's also the other major issue. A lot of my black peers who are darker don't see me as black. They'll accept me as sharing common characteristics and difficulties maybe, but if I answered my colleague's question about "the black experience", they would yell bitch please pretty fast. I'd feel quite fraudulent answering that too. I don't mind talking about racism I've experienced, but I don't want it framed as being "as a black woman bla bla."

Quite a few posters asked me what colour I am. Whilst I don't think it's relevant in the grand scheme of things, this is my leg, for those who are interested.

@SenecaFallsRedux

In the US they'd be Hispanic (like me! ) But here I guess they're just plain white.

In the US, they can be Hispanic and white because we (officially that is) differentiate between race and ethnicity. Ethnicity is usually national origin in the US. So I am white and Scottish-American. Like most Americans, it's more than just Scottish, but I have a Scottish surname so that's what I put down when asked on forms.

And speaking of my Scottish surname, where I am from in the Southern US, it's also a common surname for many Black families.

I thought Hispanic means you were raised in that culture rather you are white or not. Latino is more race related

[quote SoVeryLost]@Goosefoot you are the one insisting that your race is your culture. Race is not necessarily linked to your culture at all, especially someone who is mixed race. Culturally if they live in the UK they are British. Some are likely to be third or fourth generation now and will not know much about the ‘black’ culture you are trying to foist on them, the culture will be very different depending on the country that their parent/grandparent/ great grandparent came from. Your views are exactly the thing that many people complain about as you are excusing the people who ask where are you really from.

If you are mixed race your culture isn’t necessarily ‘black’. I bet white people would get really pissed off if black or mixed race people called them hidden blacks.

@diamondpony80 why do you think mixed race people call themselves black? When people insist on calling them black or believe the one drop rule.[/quote]
Um, no, I haven't said that. I specifically said many black people don't relate to what we think of as "black" culture, while still falling under the social definition of being black.

But all racial categories as such are socially defined. Why do we call people from the opposite sides of the African continent, or people whose African ancestors ended up in the US where they mixed heavily with Europeans and have a completely new and separate cultural experience, black? Because those differences aren't really what the definition is based on. We could if we wanted to classify those all as different races, just as we used to classify the French and Irish as different races.

Race as an idea bears a relation to ethnicity, and both can relate to a person's family and historic cultural connections. But they aren't the same. If we create a term as broad as "white" does it really imply some kind of common cultural experience, or even closely related ethnicity? No. And it's not like whites are the most widespread or numerous of the so-called races.

The OP being British with English/African-Brazillian heritage likely tells us far more about her background than saying she's black. But if the social understanding of black is "people with African ancestors" than that is how people will see her.

The word Hispanic is about language, Hispanic people can be European, African, Native American, black, white, mixed, from any social class, whatever.
They do tend to share certain cultural elements because language is so closely tied to culture.

I have ancestor five generation ago who was labeled mulatto in the US census but I am not black, I am white. So this one drop is ridiculous

Neither Hispanic nor Latino are entirely race related (for the most part they're used interchangeably but Hispanics don't include Brazilians).

Anywho, all Mestizos (indigenous Latin American + Spaniards) are Latino/Hispanic . No census will ask if you're mestizo and that's where the généralisation comes from.

Blimey you're not allowed to call yourself mixed-race, when you factually are, without being accused of racism? I'm not surprised you're naffed off. Punching them might be slightly out of order though, so I'm glad it's only metaphorical.

I would say that it can be a little confusing for people, as some mixed race people like to be called black, and others don't. But if you've told someone several times that you're mixed race and they call you black, then they're being incredibly rude and inconsiderate. However, I do think you need to find a way to cope with it, as people most likely don't mean any harm by it, and it sounds like your friend was perhaps trying to take an interest in something you might have an interest in given that you are mixed race? I don't know though, I'm just assuming!

The person who called you racist is a moron though! I hate it when people say things like that!

@youkiddingme Yes, nobody will actually get punched. Stuff like this doesn't just happen to people who are black/white mixed either. I remember sitting in a meeting last year infuriated because there is this sort of "ethnic diversity" mentoring group, and one of my senior colleagues (who wasn't at the meeting) was brought up in the following conversation:

Person 1: "X has signed up as a mentor"

Person 2: "Does X know it's only ethnic minorities who can participate?"

Person 3: "Apparently they are half Chinese."

Person 2: "They don't look very Chinese."

Person 1: "Yeah well, I guess it's complicated."

And this kind of thing happens too often. Perhaps I notice it more accutely as it's a big thing at work atm and everybody keeps getting pushed to go on committees and workshops to solve racism. Let's cure world hunger whilst we're at it.

I don't know. I might be a little unreasonable with the level of anger I am currently feeling, but it didn't just come out of nowhere. It's built on a lifetime of misunderstandings and micro-aggressions on who I should be, how I should do my hair, how I should talk, what opinions I should have. If my image doesn't match with certain people's racial fantasy, they'll tell me about it. I need to be educated after all. How else will I possibly find out what ethnic group I belong to?!

@Goosefoot

Goosefoot It is in a way about heritage, because being labelled as "black" in this country comes with a whole set of both physical traits and cultural experiences that I frankly can't identify with. And the ones I can identify with, partly because of my experience as someone with both black and white heritage, don't matter.

I think there are actually a lot of people who don't experience those. And many of them aren't mixed race.
That's the difficulty, we behave as if there is just one thing that being black is, a certain culture, a certain class experience, certain music and foods, certain political opinions. But it's just not true.
I actually think it's healthier to think about your heritage in a more individual way, many of us have unique family histories and profiles and sets of experiences related to those, that are pretty individual, in terms of all the things you mention.
It's a weird thing, society defines race very broadly, so broadly that they see a guy living in the mountains of Rwanda and guy living in the Kalahari desert are the same race despite very different languages, culture, physical appearance, environment. That's to say nothing of the experience within those cultures of things like sex, class, or religion. But at the same time we tend to assume a kind of sameness of experience and political opinion and culture. Even in a country like the US, where most blacks have European ancestors and don't know a lot about their families history before coming to the US, there are very different experiences among different parts of the black or African American population. Recent immigrants have a different experience for example, or middle class families etc.
It's probably not a bad thing for people to hear that someone defined as black by the social conventions of their society doesn't fit in with the experiences or think the narrative is really something that applies to their family well.

Not read the whole thread but want to agree with Goosefoot. I'm black, but probably the wrong sort of black with the wrong sort of opinions and life experience. I find the whole "speaking for my race" tiresome. It is fundamentally rude to drag other people into your virtue signalling drama. Don't need an ally, not a fluffer. Thanks.

When I was at school we always said mixed race for mixed race people, and would be more specific if it was relevant to the conversation (I went to a very diverse school and we did talk about skin colour a lot but not really about racism, more in a descriptive way if that makes sense). I have seen on Twitter it seems normal to call Americans who are mixed race with a black parent, "black", and I thought that it was happening here more because we often adopt American trends. Like Kamala Harris for example, I was very surprised to discover that her mum is Indian as I'd read many times that she is black. Some people may describe a mixed race person as black if they don't realise the person is mixed race, but when they do know and they still describe them as black I find it a bit strange. Saying that, I've seen mixed race people (on Twitter again) describe themselves as black, but again they tend to be from the US.

I've often wondered why this was the case? why opt for one parent's racial tendencies but ignore the other?

If I a white person were to call you, a mixed race person, ‘black’ aren’t I in fact saying ‘not white’ and isn’t that a retrograde step ? I don’t think society is yet ‘non racist’ (it’s not really) enough to call mixed race people ‘white’ nor racially mature enough to be happy with ‘mixed race’ and many of us still think by using ‘black’ it is respecting your black heritage rather than overlooking it rather than listening to what you want.
It is complex. Or maybe it’s actually really simple. You are mixed race and wish to identify as such and nothing else.

YANBU at all! I agree with you about Meghan too, I’d never have known about her heritage if it hadn’t been reported.

Whiteness has become more strictly policed in recent years with blackness growing accordingly as a category. No one has the right to tell you you’re black or for that matter white.

Above all else OP, all this BS is a violation of your boundaries.
First your friend defines you, 'as a black person' then hangs the validity of your response on THEIR definition, ...'what is your opinion...;
Then refuses to accept your position on your own racial status
Then you get labelled a racist for it...
Then some people start discussing how black you have to look to be black or not - as though the evidence received by their eyes and judged by their filter must outrank your own opinion which I presume is based on a whole load of information that you have lived
Just pffft
And that is the very polite version

Apologies if someone else already made this point, I've not read every post.

I think this is a cultural/political influence coming from America. During segregation several states had a legal "one drop rule". It said that any person with even one black ancestor was themselves to be treated as black. The laws have been long abolished, but it set the cultural dividing lines of who was considered black, and therefore who considered themselves black.

That's why Meghan Markle and Barack Obama both identify as black, whereas by British standards they would be considered mixed race. Now that a lot of discourse on racism is coming from America, people are also starting to absorb the US racial definitions.

YANBU OP, you should have the right to describe your heritage the way you see it, and not have a definition imposed on you.