Nursery withholding DS drink

[T33l9]

My toddler (new to nursery) has been returning home with a full drink cup, as in - not being given his juice.

It is sugar free and heavily diluted so it's not unhealthy.

After doing some reading online it appears that alot of nurseries have a blanket rule of 'no juice' but this hasn't been communicated with me.

My problem is that he is a restricted eater/drinker due to having additional needs and I'm concerned he's not getting sufficient fluids. He may take a sip of water if he's totally parched, if they're lucky, but he certainly won't take in enough. When he gets home he screams and shouts for juice because he's overly thirsty.

AIBU to tell them to let him have the juice I'm sending him in with?

@Itisbetter

Do you know how much fluid he should be drinking a day? Do they? What is that amount. Are his lips dry? Is he constipated?

As you mention constipated..

He has been in nursery since July, two days a week, and not once has he pooed there.

His book always says 'wet when changed' but never that he has pooed (which they are to write down if he does)

He's there from 9.30 until 4.30 two days a week.

Not pooing in nursery isn’t an issue and certainly doesn’t indicate constipation. Children only pooing at home is pretty normal

You could Ask if he can have juice but In a non see through bottle so other kids won’t realise?

@dixiedo

I think for a SEN nursery it's ridiculous. Mainstream I would understand but even with mainstream special measures should be put in place depending on the child, their needs and what is stated in a care plan.

I work with SEN in an education setting and I also have a son with ASD/ADHD.
In my opinion it is actually a safeguarding issue.
It's a deprivation of Liberty and he has a right to have access to fluid. Unless they have paperwork and a DOLS in place they shouldn't be refusing him any drinks at all.
If you're sure that he will not be consuming their water then it's quite serious.

A lot of people may not understand but often a child/adult with SEN will and can completely refuse alternatives to the point of severe dehydration and death.

We have had students on a diet of solely Jaffa cakes. Unhealthy and causes medical issues to the point of needing PEG etc yes, but unfortunately there's no changing them same with individuals that eat plastic or soil. They are who they are.

We have students that will only drink Lemonade. It's not healthy and we don't want to promote it but they have a right to choose. Forcing an alternative and taking away their right is actually abuse.

I would be very upset by this also OP and would expect so much more from a SEN placement.
If they don't want others to see which I do understand he should be offered his juice in private. I would ask for a fluid intake chart to be started.

Thank you for this post (and everybody else who understands where I'm coming from.

To another another PP - sending him with an alternative won't be accepted at this stage as they are enforcing a blanket rule that is not only "no juice" but goes further than that, they want all of the children to have "the same" and that same is water.

Also his current bottle is non see though.

It's a solid opaque Tommy tippie drinks bottle with an opaque straw.

To know that he has been sent with juice they will have had to open it and check (which they clearly have as they've emptied it more than once)

sending him with an alternative won't be accepted at this stage as they are enforcing a blanket rule that is not only "no juice" but goes further than that, they want all of the children to have "the same" and that same is water.

But this hasn’t happened yet because you haven’t asked if he can bring in juice as a reasonable adjustment, your dh just asked why he wasn’t given his juice. They have no idea you want a special arrangement.

They have said the reason he isn't being given his juice is because they promote all of the children having the same thing to drink - water.

It’s a nursery that support children with additional needs to get them as ready as possible for school. Of course they are going to suggest water, and no dummy because it takes our children longer to learn to adapt for school norms. That’s EXACTLY what you are paying for

Does he always gave the same staff? It may be that some staff allow him the squash and others don’t. It doesn’t mean they are throwing it away. Starting nursery is a learning curve for everyone. I’m surprised you didn’t get a welcome pack with the rules.

Why do you keep calling it diluted juice when the picture you posted was squash which is obviously diluted?

Probably a regional thing. No one I know uses the word squash. I would call it diluting juice. I'm Scottish.

Op after reading all of your posts I think yanbu. The nursery don't sound like they communicate well and they need to allow reasonable adjustments. I think you're taking the right approach to ask them to record water intake (will they definitely be truthful though?)

My son much prefers milk or diluting juice to water but he has no SEN and I know he won't get dehydrated if offered water instead so we only give him water for nursery as I think it's good for him to realise that he can't always have the exact drink he wants. I definitely think exceptions need to be made in cases of SEN though and it's a harmless exception at that. A sugar free, heavily diluted drink in a bottle that no other children can see the contents? It sounds like it's just a power thing if they keep refusing it.

I remember having the same issue with ds. Although it was mainstream. He’s now 18 and I can’t remember the outcome, just that it was one of many issues over the years. He must have drank just water eventually because they had the same rule through school and he drinks water now.

You’ve said repeatedly that they are throwing his drink away but you can’t know this. Maybe the times he’s come back with half a bottle he managed to drink some before it was taken away?

It’s very poor that they haven’t discussed this with you.

I'm not paying £££ per month to be given advice that would upset and distress my son though. As they are experienced in dealing with SEN then they should know not to force certain issues, like removing something that aids a child to self regulate. I'm in multiple SEN groups and the overwhelming response to that issue is that the nursery is wrong in that regard.

I have an adult loved one with ASD and he still, to this day, sucks his thumb at home when he's overwhelmed - at age 34. Is that ideal? Not if you judge it by NT standards it's not, but it meets a sensory requirement and soothe him through a shut down.

My DS is only 2.5

IMO it's not acceptable to deprive children with additional needs of something they actually need to make life that little bit easier. SEN children have enough struggles as it is.

DS has horrendous meltdowns and is prone to self harming behaviour, one of the only things that helps in those moments is his dummy. Do people really think taking it away is a good idea? I don't.

The juice is just another, subsequent matter that me and the nursery disagree on.

Crossed posts, sorry

I can't say for certain that they're pouring it away but I'm fairly sure based on the fact the bottle is returned empty half the time and also the outcome of the conversation DP had with them this morning, being told they don't allow juice at all.

He does tend to have the same staff yes.

It's bonkers to me how these rules weren't outlined when he began there in July.

You can’t apply a blanket rule to a child with ARFID. If they so fundamentally misunderstand this, they’re never going to get it right. Send him elsewhere.

But nursery are dealing with lots of children so they do have to have blanket rules to a certain extent and can’t individualise care for everyone and every issue. I suspect you will find that no nursery or school will ok squash. So, you need to be prepared to compromise on certain issues. My son has ASD so I do know how hard it is, but while I think the nursery does need to communicate better, I don’t think they will budge on squash.

I agree Davespecifco.

I want to be absolutely sure he's taking in sufficient fluid.

He may well accept a few sips of water if he's desperate, but that's very different to being sufficiently hydrated.

My plan is to request they journal his water intake, if they are refusing juice at this stage then I have to trust them to be transparent about the water don't I?

It's shit that this even has to be an issue.

Personally I want him to have his juice because I know for absolute certain he will drink it all.

IMO it's not acceptable to deprive children with additional needs of something they actually need to make life that little bit easier. SEN children have enough struggles as it is.
But he doesn’t “need” it if he’s been attending since the summer and a nursery is a much easier place to learn these skills. You seem to have set your heart on him not drinking water at school. He’s already managing sips, in a few short months. Honestly if it was me I’d be talking about how you can support him to drink water not how to support him to stay stuck on juice.

@T33l9 you're welcome and please don't get down about your thread. I feel perhaps some posters are missing the point this is a SEN nursery not a mainstream.
An SEN nursery shouldn't have blanket measures in the first place. Most children from the SEN nursery will move to a SEN school.

Also understanding GDD is that knowing your child probably isn't going to meet the norm criteria that other 2.5 year olds may have met already. There are plenty of 2.5 year old NT children that still have a dummy. I wouldn't even care about that at this point.

For me personally having a child with a disability, I have found you almost grieve for the fact that they don't and will probably will never have a "normal" life. It's hard to have to be able trust people when your child needs a lot more support and it's natural to be that extra bit more protective and defensive of them so I can completely empathise with how you're feeling.

As much as I don't agree with a blanket rule, I'm happy for him to have water if I can be reassured that he's drinking enough of it.

Without that reassurance of course I would prefer he drinks juice because I know he won't refuse it (like I've seen him refuse water many times)

If they will document his fluid intake for me when asked, and it shows he's getting sufficient hydration, then I will drop the issue of juice.

I’m not trying to be awkward but you say juice makes life easier. Honestly, we see so many dc with rotten teeth and it’s the impact of juice. Black painful teeth by age 6 is the reality of sips of juice through the day from age 2. It doesn’t make life easier long term.

I think a specialist SEN nursery trying to implement a 'blanket rule' is a bit concerning anyway - each child has completely different needs and triggers, so surely a blanket rule on anything is a daft idea?

The nursery might not disagree on drinking juice though in fairness, once you outline your concerns they could be perfectly fine with your son having it, as someone else said upthread though, definitely request a meeting rather than discussing with staff at handover time as it tends to be a bit manic, or you'll get stock responses instead of information specific to your son

[quote dixiedo]@T33l9 you're welcome and please don't get down about your thread. I feel perhaps some posters are missing the point this is a SEN nursery not a mainstream.
An SEN nursery shouldn't have blanket measures in the first place. Most children from the SEN nursery will move to a SEN school.

Also understanding GDD is that knowing your child probably isn't going to meet the norm criteria that other 2.5 year olds may have met already. There are plenty of 2.5 year old NT children that still have a dummy. I wouldn't even care about that at this point.

For me personally having a child with a disability, I have found you almost grieve for the fact that they don't and will probably will never have a "normal" life. It's hard to have to be able trust people when your child needs a lot more support and it's natural to be that extra bit more protective and defensive of them so I can completely empathise with how you're feeling. [/quote]
Honestly thank you, that means alot.

I'm aware I may be coming across badly esp to parents whos children don't have SEN.

I am protective and I worry about him because he's vulnerable.

I have found you almost grieve for the fact that they don't and will probably will never have a "normal" life

This is absolutely spot on and what I go through myself, so when I see people expecting him to behave and respond to situations the way a 'normal' child would - I get upset and defensive.

@Nikori that's missing the point of sending your child to a SEN facility surely? There should be individual care plans, education plans and behaviour plans.

I wouldn't accept anything less that environment. I know where I work everybody is evaluated on an individual basis to ensure every individuals needs are met. It just wouldn't work otherwise. Even in mainstream there should be a reasonable adjustment meeting.

I’m not really getting why you don’t just give them a call and ask the questions now. You are ready to fight this but you don’t even know what’s going on. It sounds like he is drinking water - and just as a reminder, if he’s eating fruit, veg, yogurts etc he’ll be getting fluid intake from that too.

When my DD (SEN) started pre school (a few years ago now) I made it quite clear to them that she wouldn't drink milk or water. Trust me I did try with her. I used to send in diluted fresh orange. Pre school asked that I put it in a non-clear bottle so the other kids wouldn't want some.

Now she is at school (special school) they are more understanding of the situation.

Just have a chat with the manager of the pre school

@ T33l9

I can see how upset you are by your responses to OP's comments. I understand why you are upset, believe me.

I'd like you to maybe try and see things from a different viewpoint ?

I understand your DS is 2.5 yrs and has been diagnosed as having SEN (as well as maybe a further diagnosis of ASD in the future) ?

I also understand that the nursery he goes to is specifically for SEN children ?

If all of this is correct, then what your issue actually is, is that you know what works with your DS at home, and you'd like his nursery to continue doing things in exactly the same way ?

If that is correct, then what you're not seeing, is that your DC has to learn that in nursery (and in school when he's older), things are done differently. Unfortunately, with SEN kids, this will be a little tougher and take a little longer, but it is definitely worth it, for both of you.

Although your DC has SEN, he is not incapable of learning, or of adjusting to change, same as any child. He will benefit from learning that different places have different routines/ rules.

You actually need him to learn this, so that he can develop his own strategies and coping mechanisms as well as increasing his 'tolerance' of different drinks/ food/ people etc.

I really do understand that you and your DH have spent the last 2.5 yrs learning what 'works' and what your DS 'likes' etc, but the staff at the nursery are not there to maintain your rituals, they are there to help your son learn that the world is different outside of your home/ family.

As he learns and develops, things which he would not tolerate at home, can become things he will tolerate in other places/ situations, and your life will be easier because of it.

Teaching SEN kids new things/ routines is HARD work and ridiculously repetitive, and so is very often better accomplished by people without an emotional link to the child, someone who doesn't get upset when the child gets upset, someone who is more dispassionate, i.e a teacher/ SEN helper etc.

I know it's heartbreaking to see your child 'thirsty' or 'hungry', but if he is to learn and progress, he must go through this (and so must every other SEN child) to be able to develop.
He will learn, that no matter what, juice is not given at nursery, and at some point he will learn that he must accept water if he is thirsty.

The nursery will also be a great help with the 'no dummy' and with accepting more foods and with toilet training etc, but you have to allow the nursery staff to do their job and teach your DS.

I'm going to speak to the nursery manager at pick up and request a meeting, I'm not just ranting on here with no plan of action.

I'm going to address it in a calm and rational manner, I'm just benefiting from gathering others opinions in the mean time.