When did Think become Fink.

[WokenUpEarly]

Genuine question, taking out any speech issues, when did Think become Fink?
Throw become Frow?
Etc

Strange namechange84, I'm Welsh(south) and have never heard it round here, and we are hardly bastions of speaking "proper!" (Where to you going?) Where in Wales was your ex from?

It's something I associate with estuary English I.e south London and essex so perhaps the popularity of things like easteners and towie have spread it further over the last twenty years or so.

Like lots of other linguistic "errors" I'm not really bothered about speech but am always more surprised when people actually write words with an incorrect f....even if they have a fairly low reading level surely they should have seen very basic words like "think" and "nothing" spelt correctly?

When I came to London as an 8yo. I also learned the I came from Island (no one ever said Ireland)

I have thought of getting help for it but it has never held me back so i dont see the point now. I have a good education and job so I've just left it. I don't feel ashamed of it as we all have flaws.

Started out in London (associated with the Cockney accent) and spread to the areas around the Thames Estuary. A lot of the unusual features of working class London accents are at least partially due to influence from the high level of historical immigration to the city. Th-fronting (basically, pronouncing th as f or v) is thought to be one of them. The English th sound is quite hard for speakers of languages that don't use it.

I do find it interesting how some regional accents are more widely accepted than others. Th-fronting is seen as something people do because they're uneducated (even thought it's clear even from this thread that people are aware it's regional), but, for example, article reduction ("the" becoming "t'") is accepted as a legitimate aspect of the Yorkshire accent (even though it is widely mocked/parodied).

When I moved to a gritty bit of Surrey... it's a localised dialect, hideous!

Th- fronting is regional, and goes back hundreds of years in London/Kent/Essex.
I'm from the Kent/London borders, and have to concentrate very hard to pronounce th-. To the extent that I usually mis-pronounce "thief" as "thie-th" as I'm over-thinking it .

There is a rich (no doubt in both senses) vein of MNers that will tell you th- fronting makes one vulgar/lazy/thick/common. Vulgar and common I'll admit to, thick and lazy not so much.

Nice to know my inability to pronounce th is hedious.

@ClashCityRocker I can't really hear the difference either. I also knocked my front tooth out when i was a child and think it may have affected the 'th' sounds.

I'm nearly 50 and I don't think it's any more common than it ever was. It's a feature of some London/ Estuary English accents and is also done by people who have trouble with 'th" sounds or those who are trying to sound like Cockney geezers. It was ever thus.

It didn't become anything those words are still spelled with a th. Some people say th as more an f sound for some it's an accent thing, some a speech impediment and some I suppose laziness or acquired from the people they're around. There's always been variations on language. It also changes over time. I think the question you should be asking is why it bothers you so much.

When DS1 was little we saw a speech therapist as he struggled to pronounce a number of sounds, “th” included. I kid you not, the speech therapist couldn’t say “th” either, said it was a local accent and refused to work with him on it. A lot of persistence at home and he can and does now say “th”.

DP has a deliciously broad Essex dialect, which felt positively exotic when we first met (still one of his hotter features). He's all fink, vat (but with glottal stop), free, vem (or dem, depending on preceding sound). He can hear the difference and can pull off received pronunciation for a laugh. DC1 has emulated DP's dialect completely, despite no one else we know speaks like this, and she definitely can't hear the difference. She's dyslexic and really struggles with f / th / v / d.
DC2 speaks like me (European immigrant with a trace of accent), and has no difficulty distinguishing between the sounds.

I'm from East London , so 'fink' comes naturally to me. Since teaching phonics I use the correct th sound much more often , though if I'm with family and old friends f slips out sometimes. Th is actually a huge effort with my accent if I'm honest!

@newyearnoeu

Strange namechange84, I'm Welsh(south) and have never heard it round here, and we are hardly bastions of speaking "proper!" (Where to you going?) Where in Wales was your ex from?

It's something I associate with estuary English I.e south London and essex so perhaps the popularity of things like easteners and towie have spread it further over the last twenty years or so.

Like lots of other linguistic "errors" I'm not really bothered about speech but am always more surprised when people actually write words with an incorrect f....even if they have a fairly low reading level surely they should have seen very basic words like "think" and "nothing" spelt correctly?

My ex was from Talgarth so Mid and quite close to the border. My Welsh students that can’t say th are from Wrexham (x2), Cardiff and Welshpool. I didn’t think it was a common Welsh thing either! Unless ALL of them picked it up at uni?!

@IceniWarrior

Nice to know my inability to pronounce th is hedious.

First bizarre typical Mumsnet post, congratulations x

Started out in London (associated with the Cockney accent) and spread to the areas around the Thames Estuary. A lot of the unusual features of working class London accents are at least partially due to influence from the high level of historical immigration to the city. Th-fronting (basically, pronouncing th as f or v) is thought to be one of them. The English th sound is quite hard for speakers of languages that don't use it.

We Londoners are the sophisticated, worldly ones, welcoming travelers to our shores and making integration into our language easy.

So much for the 'fick' insinuation. Saaf Laandon Massive, innit?

@Iminaglasscaseofemotion

Laziness

No, it’s not.

I didn’t realise until adulthood that ‘th’ and ‘f’ were not pronounced the same.

I just can’t hear it.

I could now start pronouncing it correctly but it doesn’t come naturally and people understand me just fine.

Also, in that time, I had learnt to speak several foreign languages fluently and use them on a daily basis.

I’m certainly no slouch in the language and speech department.

I think it's clear that different areas, parts of the country think differently.

Thanks for your replies. In Scotland, where I live, it's a bit different.

Thank you xx

@caughtalightsneeze yes! It’s to do with voiced v voiceless sounds. So th-fronting (literally using the lips instead of the teeth as lips are in front of the teeth) makes think- fink, and the-ve. Backing that vowel (pulling the tongue back along the palate) makes think-tink and the-de. It’s all about where in the mouth that sound is made. and as a pp said the th(ink) sound is unusual and quite difficult if it’s not your default.

The same people who say you ‘should’ be able to say that would highly likely struggle with the Welsh ‘ll’ or the click sounds in languages like Xhosa, but those people who learn them from birth do it without a thought.

@Youarebeingwatched, the inability to hear sounds that to you are not distinct is a recognised part of speech pathology.
It’s the reason for the stereotypical ‘flied lice’ foR fried rice in Asian people for example, because in mandarin there is no distinction between /r/ and /l/ so they simply don’t hear it. In Welsh r and rh are distinct letters. I’m sure if a welsh speaker said there was a difference in pronunciation between Rhys and Rees, most people would think they were mad or being pedantic, but to us it’s the same as an English speaker saying fly and fry arent the same word to a mandarin speaker. It’s a very real thing.

It’s a very normal pronunciation where I’m from (Kent). Whenever someone on the baby name threads suggests Thea I always think they can’t live in the south London or estuary area because around there Thea would be pronounced as fear.

Thea I always think they can’t live in the south London or estuary area because around there Thea would be pronounced as fear.

I’ve always pronounced it Tay-uh!

the inability to hear sounds that to you are not distinct is a recognised part of speech pathology.

I didn't know that! That explains a particular discussion that I've been having for about ten years on Mumsnet about how certain words rhyme in my accent and even when people link to clips of other people saying the words, I can't hear the difference.

I live very close to you OP And I would be surprised to hear this. I am aware thy at it is an estuary thing and that’s fine. I would be surprised to hear people who were born and raised in Scotland using this.

My maiden name is very traditionally Scottish but an increasing number of young people couldn’t pronounce it before I got married. My children have odd wee accents so I suspect it is related to how much more blended we all are culturally

I’m trying to imagine someone with a Scottish accent dropping the th sound and I just can’t hear it! Does anyone have examples on YouTube or similar?