High achieving families

[Coldemort]

this isn't about politics disclaimer
So... I ended up down a twitter/wikipedia rabbit hole around the Javid family (most famous being Sajid, but brother Baz is also very high ranking, another brother a CEO, another a millionaire property magnate).
That family are first generation, working class. What is the family dynamic that makes them so very successful?
The Johnsons of the world, I get. When you have wealth, privalege and the best education money can buy, it makes sense you are going to be in the elite.
But what is the dynamic in working class families that produce such high achieving children? (I could reference other families, but the Javids are the one that caught my eye tonight)

I believe in 'if you believe you can't you won't.'. I don't believe the reverse, 'if you believe you can then you will'. I reckon it takes a huge dollop of luck, good genes, good health, supportive family and luck to be 'successful' - however one defines it.

I'm in a well paid, enjoyable (most of the time) influential job. 15 years ago had I a chance, random meeting outside a shop I probably wouldn't be where I am now.

@Dustballs you need to find out which kind of work most people in your area love to do - and stay well away from it. Then you find out which unpopular things are absolutely necessary, and how you can do them better than anybody else. And invest a lot of effort in this. My barely literal grandfather was a carpenter, my mum an accountant, my dad a gardener, and I‘m doing something entirely different. We all made a career by being exceptionally good in an unpopular but essential niche. The result is amazing work life balance (whoever they would like me to replace with would ask for the same), and a salary that it a multiple of what your average carpenter/accountant/gardener/whatever gets.
But the drive to get into this niche and make it yours and make it enjoyable needs to come from you, and that bit is hard.

That's really interesting.

Thank you @ohnothisagain

I believe in 'if you believe you can't you won't.'. I don't believe the reverse, 'if you believe you can then you will

I totally agree.

But because I believe the first one is true I have found that working on my mindset HAS made a big difference to my life.

I run in very left leaning circles where even to suggest that anyone has any influence over the success in their lives is considered heresy and I honestly think it holds so many of my friends back.
I have one friend who comes from a very middle class home, is an only child with very supportive (both emotionally and financially) parents and she and her husband have well paid jobs at a university.
She's convinced that she can't afford to buy a home because 'boomers' have bought all the housing stock and house prices are so ridiculous.
When I point out to her that house prices in our area are actually well below national average and in many places haven't recovered from the 2008 crash, she looks at me like I'm from Mars. You can get a really nice terrace house for 80 grand where we live but she has it in her head that it's just not possible for her because our generation has been screwed over.

I think that there's definitely some truth in that but she's so convinced she has no control over her life that she can't see how to make it better.
I wouldn't mind so much but it's all she talks about and I just feel really bad for her, she isn't able to see how lucky she is at all and it really impacts on her wellbeing but obviously I can't say anything to her.

I think one of the downsides of very well meaning and true analysis of structural issues is that it can make people feel powerless and hold them back from making individual changes as they see them as pointless.

I believe that both things are true at once

1. society is extremely unfair, a lot comes down to luck, money and contacts. We need to restructure at a systemic level so that social and financial mobility is possible for those who want it and to keep the vulnerable safe.

2. Your mindset and individual actions can make a huge difference to your life and success.

Also it comes down to knowing what you want. I have a very successful business (well I did before Covid) but to make that happen I have made the decision not to have kids. Some people have said to me I'm 'lucky' to have my business and in lots and lots of ways I am, but in other ways it was down to grit, determination and sacrifice. I'm not saying anyone can do it with grit and determination because I know that's not true but it also didn't just fall into my lap down to only luck.

Interesting thread, place marking for after the school run!

It's an interesting one. Michelle Obama/The Robinsons came to mind for me too. Poor background, close family, high expectations. But I think ability comes into it too. Michelle Obama went to Princeton and hard work gets you so far, but aptitude is needed too. It's clear from her book that she had academic ability and this was compounded by the good habits of her family (practice, standards etc). Also her mum not afraid to 'fight' for her family such as when she gets Michelle moved from a lower set. Not everyone can achieve to that level with hard work alone, leaving aside toxic, pushy families where it's fear of failure that drives -there does seem to be the perfect alchemy of ability and environmental that breeds 'top' success.

Although the thread wasn’t intended to be political, anecdotally my observation is that working class families who tend to do well like the Javids are usually right leaning. The left leaning section of society tends to spend time blaming everyone else for them left behind.
The left has systematically damaged people’s beliefs that they can actually influence their own success, it’s not guaranteed but without effort they certainly won’t be successful. Perpetuating ‘everyone’s a winner’ attitude and applauding mediocrity is a hallmark of this leftists school of thought.

@AuntPeggy

It's an interesting one. Michelle Obama/The Robinsons came to mind for me too. Poor background, close family, high expectations. But I think ability comes into it too. Michelle Obama went to Princeton and hard work gets you so far, but aptitude is needed too. It's clear from her book that she had academic ability and this was compounded by the good habits of her family (practice, standards etc). Also her mum not afraid to 'fight' for her family such as when she gets Michelle moved from a lower set. Not everyone can achieve to that level with hard work alone, leaving aside toxic, pushy families where it's fear of failure that drives -there does seem to be the perfect alchemy of ability and environmental that breeds 'top' success.

Why do you equate ‘pushy’ with ‘toxic’? What toxic about having expectations of your children, setting them goals and letting them know when they didn’t try hard enough. What do you think happens in the real world when people don’t try hard enough, they don’t get shielded by their parents so children need a level of understanding about this from an early age.

Snorringferret

That fits my observations, and I think it also fits the research with regards to how different communities fare.

I don't think everyone needs to be highly successful, and it shouldn't have to be top of the heap to have a good life. But man, we don't do people any favours by creating learned helplessness.

@sst1234

Although the thread wasn’t intended to be political, anecdotally my observation is that working class families who tend to do well like the Javids are usually right leaning. The left leaning section of society tends to spend time blaming everyone else for them left behind. The left has systematically damaged people’s beliefs that they can actually influence their own success, it’s not guaranteed but without effort they certainly won’t be successful. Perpetuating ‘everyone’s a winner’ attitude and applauding mediocrity is a hallmark of this leftists school of thought.

There is probably some truth to that, just like there is truth that there are systemic barriers or that capitalism is pyramidal.

But my own feeling is that education and parenting styles have changed in a way that probably has had more effect than the overall views of people on the left, though the latter may have influenced the former.

Back when schools started to emphasise self-esteem and certain approaches to inclusion, it was found fairly soon that they didn't work all that well. Research into these areas has shown that the effects on students are not what was expected, in fact constant praise tended to make the children less confident, and children became less willing to try or take risks. The best outcomes came from praise for real effort with an emphasis on working hard and understanding that things take time and effort.
Education has also tended to become less willing to let children learn to organise themselves, deadlines become porous, failure doesn't happen. Not just when there are really good clear student focused reasons, but just generally. And a heck of a lot of schoolwork is clearly silly busywork. It's difficult for most people to be motivated under those circumstances.

The other thing is that we have moved away from children as important contributors to the household and society - by the time they are teens they are disempowered from any real important social role and have generally settled quite comfortably into the role of a person who just receives the fruits of society - long after they would be adults with adult responsibilities in most cultures.

In children, all of this is very powerful, as it shapes how they respond to the world and understand themselves in a basic way. Overcoming that conditioning is quite an effort if you can even figure out that you want to.

I know one of the brothers. They are a tight family and my impression was that they look out for each other and share their wealth and opportunity.

The one I know is very personable too (haven't met the others). Money was always a focus.

Going back to your question I think that opportunity is still there for anyone that wants it and is bright enough (not academic necessarily) to work out how to get there.

@TheBlessedCheesemaker

I wonder more how very difficult it must be to have that passionate drive to succeed If you DON’T come from a poor family.

Speaking as an academic high achiever of a middle class family of academic high achievers, I found that people were so overwhelmingly confident that I could do anything they didn't concern themselves with setting me on a path to do something specific - financially motivated or otherwise.

Having said that, my eldest sister and I are grifters. We have both proactively moved up into senior roles in our fields. Our other sister is a vocational type - a teacher - and actively avoids advancement that would take her away from the job she loves. Our brother is entitled whinger who has a reasonably paid but static university job and resents all three of us in spite of putting definitively the least effort in .

(worth saying that I think all four of us are doing valuable work that suits us and there's nothing inherently good about being a career type/vocational type - just that my brother is a moaner who wants the glitz of the higher earners without the corresponding drive...)

goose I agree with a lot of your post.

Children of immigrant families often do very well - huge generalisation I know - but there seems to be a high parental expectation, lack of entitlement and willingness to graft

@Calledyoulastnightfromglasgow

goose I agree with a lot of your post.

Children of immigrant families often do very well - huge generalisation I know - but there seems to be a high parental expectation, lack of entitlement and willingness to graft

It's also often the case that the parents are highly educated, even if they aren't able to get jobs in the UK that reflect this.

@Hardbackwriter I think that was what I was trying to say upthread. I know of some Tamil families where they run corner shops but clearly back home had more illustrious careers and were educated to degree level. For many the 'work hard' ethic they instill in their children is to enable the latter to regain the status that they would have enjoyed from birth in their parents' country of origin.

Really interesting reading.

Luck. Capitalism relies on a large number of people staying at the bottom of the heap. That doesn't mean plenty of them haven't worked hard, been driven, and thrown everything at trying to better their life. I find it quite a nasty, distasteful view to suggest only the random few who end up in positions of wealth or power worked hard.

This. Honestly. DH and I are pretty well off and have worked hard-ish. We've also been really lucky several times along the way. My sibling works equally hard (is equally bright/academic) but has been less lucky, so is less well off.

I know one of the brothers. They are a tight family and my impression was that they look out for each other and share their wealth and opportunity.

This is something I've noticed from a class perspective somewhat. A lot of families that are really wealthy and successful - owning big family businesses and such, very much see their family as interdependent and responsible in some sense for each other. The same thing has tended to be true in many working class communities, and also immigrant communities - some will sacrifice to help others get ahead, working at a difficult job to pay for school, providing childcare - those members who have been helped are then expected to work hard in return and help others in the family or community. Both are inclined to think about things like property in a more communal way.

Middle class families have often been a little more independent, with expectations of each generation making their own way past university, homes aren't passed down, they are expected to find their own jobs to a larger degree, fund their own retirement etc. I've wondered a few times if that doesn't disadvantage some of those families a little as there is not as much chance to build up wealth for future generations.

Competitive siblings - often close in age and naturally intelligent.

@Calledyoulastnightfromglasgow

goose I agree with a lot of your post.

Children of immigrant families often do very well - huge generalisation I know - but there seems to be a high parental expectation, lack of entitlement and willingness to graft

It's interesting. I used to work in a school in a very disadvantaged area, most of the kids came from families that were not well off, for a variety of reasons. The also came from three main ethnic groups - white, black but families had been here for several hundred years, and recent middle eastern immigrants.

I worked in a literacy program which served all these kids, and there was no real difference in them in terms of things like intelligence or personality, they were mostly bright kids in their own way but struggled with literacy for some reason, some were slower mentally but most were wanting to do well and kind and interesting.

But we sometimes had out of school literacy events, and it was interesting that about 90% of the kids that came to these were from the immigrant families. And they came with their parents, both dads and mums, who participated with them and very much expected the kids to put serious effort into what we were doing - even though it was meant to be a fun activity. They weren't mean, but they expected the kids to do their best and try and get things right.

I don't know what motivated the parents particularly - many had limited English so conversations on topics like that weren't easy, but there really was a marked difference with the other parents in the community.

Immigrant families have a perspective that causes them to be more matter fact about achievement and success. They have an acute awareness of opportunities around them such as quality free education that would not available in most countries of origin. This is a huge driver to expect their children to ‘make the most of it’. Perhaps those that moan all day about everything in sight would do well to learn from that mentality.

In regards to immigrants, part of the reason is that the people who make the huge leap to move to another country are the most ambitious, motivated people within a society. The lower achievers are far less likely to emigrate in the first place.

@sst1234 I don't necessarily equate pushy with toxic , it was a specific reference to some posters on here who have shared that they were 'pushed'
or driven into high achievement and then later experienced fall out from that approach ie MH issues. I'd equate that to toxicity - poor mental health is a high price to pay for 'success'.
The Michelle Obama account is really different to that, high expectations - yes. But supportive family, love, and the relationships between them are strong. Not toxic. There are many roads to success, and some will be toxic, and others won't.

@sst1234 often pushy parents get in the way of the 'real world' themselves - telling kids if only they had tried harder etc etc they'll definitely 'win'. The real world means that Sally is just good at maths no matter what she does, that Eric is good at maths because he works his ass off, that Mo can't be good at maths no matter how damn hard he tries.
Work hard, do your best, find your thing. Rinse and repeat.

@sst1234

Immigrant families have a perspective that causes them to be more matter fact about achievement and success. They have an acute awareness of opportunities around them such as quality free education that would not available in most countries of origin. This is a huge driver to expect their children to ‘make the most of it’. Perhaps those that moan all day about everything in sight would do well to learn from that mentality.

I agree. In my observations owning a business, most of the other business owners I meet with and network with are not white.

I guess that means they are just more “lucky” as a culture then eh? 😆 seeing as luck is so important