To think many parents don't know what schools are like these days?

[AyeAyeShipAhoy]

It's something I've noticed quite a bit on many threads about teachers and schools. Some parents refer back to their own school days and use that to inform them as to what happens, but things have very much changed since I was at school.

As a teacher (primary) it's one of the hardest jobs I've done (this is my 2nd career, I was in management before so used to hard work and pressure). For one, the workload is huge and regularly spills into my evenings and weekends, affecting my own family time. Then there's the behaviour. But it's also one of the most rewarding jobs too and why I enjoy it.

The positives - a child that has struggled with a concept, getting it right and feeling proud of themselves, and knowing you made a difference. Supporting those kids who can struggle with their learning.

The negatives - being verbally abused - called a f*ing a*hole, cnt and a paedophile. Told to fuck off and been slapped and kicked and dodged flying objects thrown over the years.

I'll be honest, in my first career I never considered this was what was happening in schools. I remember being at school and kids doing low level stuff (humming, whole toilet rolls down the loo - this at secondary though - primary was fine!). It's been a real eye opener seeing what behaviour is like now.

So, teachers, what's your best and worst experiences.

And parents, how aware are you of what actually happens in schools and the workload? Are you aware? Or is this an eye-opener for you too?

PS I feel teaching is a hard job, but not THE hardest job, so this thread is not meant as a competition.

[quote CaptainBrickbeard]@JeffVaderneedsatray I feel so much sympathy for you. The micromanaging is very dispiriting. Putting all your questions on a lesson plan benefits nobody. Part of the skill of teaching is knowing which question to ask of which child at which time and it’s a natural, organic part of the lesson. Plus their response (or lack of) then leads to more questioning or a different strand of questioning which teachers are capable of improvising. Writing them down before is insane unless perhaps it’s a new or student teacher who needs to focus on developing the art of effective questioning.[/quote]
Oh I totally agree. I knew what to ask, who to ask etc.
I started teaching in 1991 and my plan for the WEEK was an A3 page in a note book given to me by the HT, that A3 sheet included a space to evaluate - and that was usually things like "don't use X textbook for this, questions rubbish"
I was on UPS2 when I left but had been ground down so much I was on the start of capability - I developed performance anxiety and was incapable of teaching with an audience so all observations went to shit. I would address issues they flagged up and then the next time I was observed the thing I'd changed was considered 'wrong' despite me doing what they asked. On many occasions, after an observation, one of my class would have to go for and adult as I was on the point of collapse. It only happened when I was being observed, which SLT knew, and still they piled on the observations.

All this makes me sound like a shit teacher but I genuinely was NOT. I was out of step with SLT, expensive and possibly a bit bolshy. The MAT that was taking over didn't like me - I was told that when one of them observed me. I have ex pupils who rank me as their best teacher - the one who believed in them, helped them grow in confidence, accepted their quirks etc.

I now work as a TA in a fabulously supportive school - I started doing supply there and a TA job came up - which I was offered. I am valued and trusted. I cover the odd class here and there too and the kids love me taking them. But at 3.30 I'm done and out the door. If I need to plan or get resources my class teacher gives me time in work hours.

I look at all the teachers are doing and know I could no longer do that. It is ridiculous and un sustainable. I think it will be very rare to find people who have taught all their careers in the future - I think burn out will happen more and more.

@Inkpaperstars Genuine question which I know is possibly hard to answer...why are so many of the pupils so badly behaved? Why are they so rough, frankly? Obviously I am not referring to those with SEN.

It's a mixed bag IME - there are kids with SEN who are well behaved and others that struggle. Those that struggle may be down to anxiety in being in a busy school (3 form entry here) and that can display in different ways, from being withdrawn and quiet to a full on meltdown. Then there are those that are undiagnosed who also need support to get on the pathway to diagnosis. Then there are kids that have home lives that are disruptive for a whole myriad of reasons (mental health, drugs, alcoholism, neglect, abuse) with SS involvement in some of them. There are parents whose own experience of school was negative and don't support the school. Sometimes there's a combination of all of the above.

There are also wonderful parents, who raise any issues in a respectful way, and see school and themselves as part of a partnership to give a child a good educational experience.

Someone asked upthread what sort of state schools were better: was it faith schools? I have been a qualified secondary teacher since 1994 and worked in a variety of schools and settings. I can honestly say that the 2 faith schools I had the misfortune to work at had the worst behaviour and most inept management, no surprise that the 2 correlated. Both were C of E (I'm not) and both Heads were ok but the tier immediately below them was hopeless. The Diocese had a leading role in their appointment; only one of the 4 deputies in question could actually control a class.

My first school was a comp in a huge overspill council estate in the NW of England. There was lots of deprivation but the kids and most parents were largely brilliant. Once the exhaust pipe fell off my car around 100m from the school gate. The dad of one of my class screeched to a halt behind me, jumped out and tied it on for me "because our Lee says you're a good teacher". Really sadly "our Lee" who was a really lovely young man was killed several years ago on a tour of duty with the army.

My current school is in a completely different part of the country and is selective. Behaviour is excellent, as is the current school management. I can only think of one boy I have had to have removed from my lessons in 18 years there.

I also now work a couple of afternoons in my local primary. The parents are supportive and those I have got to know are nice but they do seem to get involved in the minutiae of everything. I know one from another context and she regularly tells me "horror stories" about particular children, yet her own are far from perfect. I listen, smile, nod then forget them. One of her current "nightmare" classmates is a looked-after child. This kid had been asking me to access something for her which took a while. However, when it finally happened, she bounded up and thanked me profusely. That's not a nightmare child; it's a girl who has been dealt a rubbish hand and who needs a bit of support. Some of the more judgemental would do well to count their blessings.

Workload has increased to a ridiculous amount. Just when I am up to speed with an exam specification, it changes. This year, years 11 & 13 in my subject have different arrangements due to the time lost last term. I am teaching a different part of the A level spec so have had to get up to speed with 5 new units of work. The GCSE set works have changed. I'm not the most IT-literate, although I am confident using subject-specific packages. However, everything went onto Teams last year. Our main training was in January and just as I was getting to grips with it, lockdown happened and all teaching was on there. Although I am employed on a 0.55 FTE contract, I worked online every day, plus working with my primary school one afternoon per week teaching key worker and vulnerable children and setting other work remotely.

This year, due to bubbles, I can't teach in my normal room. I don't have access to instruments or CDs. Most of my normal teaching is practical, especially at KS3. I have had to rework my entire scheme of work for them to take account of this and am still doing it. To anyone who thinks I am lazy or incompetent, come and show me how you would do it better.

@KarlKennedysDurianFruit That's why I added "PS I feel teaching is a hard job, but not THE hardest job, so this thread is not meant as a competition." at the bottom of my OP.

My schools were way rougher than my kids school. There were known paedophiles in middle school, blatant pupil techer "relationships" in high school.
Glue, acid, E, ketamine, all rife. Fireworks let off indoors, chair throwing. All sorts.
I'm under no illusions that my DC secondary is all roses, but the behaviour is not as bad in general, and my DC hadn't smoked weed by the age of 14 , which I had , so it feels like a win.

@Sosososotired

I worked in a primary school for a short time, but l left after being physically assaulted. I was also surprised how unqualified most TA's are.

TAs in many schools are treated like disposable crap. And they are paid not much more than minimum wage for the joy. They're also generally expected to work for free (more than the hours they're paid for) to get their work done which is really not on considering their pay is already so poor.

TAs are also the first to go when the budgets keep getting axed.

Most of the TAs I have worked with work damn hard and are actually very good at what they do. The problems arise when they are asked to do things they're not supposed to be doing, like teaching a class for an ill teacher and still paid like crap for the privilege.

I wish more TAs would stand up to their SLTs frankly and that teachers would support them.

I’m surprised anyone is surprised that a lot of TAs are under qualified, have you seen how much they get paid?? I been verbally abused by parents and threatened with violence and I’ve also noticed the constant reliance on wanting the school to ‘do something’ about incidents that have taken place at the weekend.

@purplewaterfall.... oh, my mistake, I must have missed the part where the OP wrote that she was only talking about teachers in the UK??

My understanding is that the UK has also been undertaking remote learning lately so not sure why the differentiation is required between my country and yours?

I received a black eye where a 7 year old hit me in the face with a stick from behind once.

Because of all the changes in schools, parents armed with information and they indeed tell the children that the teachers are unable to do x y and z, it gives a small amount of children an element of power.

However most of the children I work with don't need any more than a finger in the air and the shhhh sign 🤣.

I love my job, but boy do all staff work beyond their paid hours.

@StoppinBy

My understanding is that the UK has also been undertaking remote learning lately so not sure why the differentiation is required between my country and yours?

Your understanding is incorrect. UK schools are fully open and all teachers are in school working full time, as most of us have been since the government reopened schools and the children returned in June.

You've missed the point that this thread is about the good and bad experiences of teachers and incorrect assumptions from parents about what schools are like these days.

It's not a thread about what parents think of the distance learning that took place last term.

The bit I feel most sorry for the teachers is the interfering from parents.
I’ve sent one letter in to school and one email so far (a month in) which I feel bad about but it’s what had to be done as obviously there is limited chance to have a quick chat at pick up now due to COVID. Speaking to other parents on the WhatsApp group though... wow ... I felt like my one email and the note that didn’t require a response was overkill ...

Goatinthegarden, of course you can touch children. Get your staff onto Team Teach or a similar positive handling course. Removing the disruptive child safely from the classroom makes a lot more sense than removing all the other children.

I like Katherine Birbalsingh.
She is quite conservative and is critical of a "liberal progressive" approach to teaching, she believes in strict boundaries and rules

Katherine Birbalsingh is also a known bully and many who have worked with her do not have positive things to say..

purplewaterfall

In what way is she a bully. Do you have any examples?

I found the poverty of aspiration that I experienced as a child absolutely mirrored in my own children's secondary education. Teachers focused just on getting a pass in a subject, but no striving to do better than a C or whatever the numeric equivalent now is.

In primary school I found the absolute lack of any attempt to accommodate working parents pretty appalling. As a child I remember yearly parents evenings or drama performances being in the evening. At my children's primary nothing ever happened after 6. All shows etc were done in the school day, and the last parents evening appt was at 5.50. with a 1.5 hour journey home and given that these appts were termly it meant me having to go cap in hand to my employer every time to ask to leave early. The general lack of effort by teachers at that school was visible, homework was rarely marked or marked incorrectly when it was.

My own secondary chool experience was pretty violent, arson attacks, vandalism, widespread bullying, pupil on pupil physical and sexual assaults, some physical assaults on teachers (but also various kids were given corporal punishment even though by then it was against the law) like a pp we also had a teacher sent to prison for CSA. Plus several questionable teacher/ ex pupil relationships. My children's school seems to be largely free of all of this which is a definite positive.

@purplewaterfall the OP specifically asked if parents have had their eyes open to the hard job that teachers have to do and how hard they work from what she has written in her post. Just because my view of what she is asking and the answers she is looking for is different to yours doesn't mean that my opinion is invalid.

For what it's worth, my daughter is also given prep and grade 1 work rather than grade 2 work (she is academically at grade 2 level and not prep/1) while she is at school under the direct teaching of her teacher and this causes her to slip backwards every term so that I end up playing catch up with her during every school holidays.

There are some wonderful teachers out there, no doubt about it, we were very lucky to have such a teacher last year but my point is that not all teachers put in the amount of effort that other teachers do in order to do the right thing by their students.

The country I live in is irrelevant the question. If someone only wants answers from a specific country then they need to/should state that in their OP.

@titbumwillypoo

Goatinthegarden, of course you can touch children. Get your staff onto Team Teach or a similar positive handling course. Removing the disruptive child safely from the classroom makes a lot more sense than removing all the other children.

I was being slightly facetious, I know we can touch them, but very few staff have had the appropriate training. Many of our support staff are quite honestly scared of handling a biting, kicking, screaming child who has learned to shout things such as ‘you’re hurting me’. Particularly when the parent will often back the child up.

This is of course an extreme example, but we usually have a handful of children in our school at one time who display aggressive, destructive behaviour regularly. Some staff take it in their stride, but others feel underprepared, under resourced and overwhelmed by it.

In primary school I found the absolute lack of any attempt to accommodate working parents pretty appalling. As a child I remember yearly parents evenings or drama performances being in the evening. At my children's primary nothing ever happened after 6. All shows etc were done in the school day, and the last parents evening appt was at 5.50. with a 1.5 hour journey home and given that these appts were termly it meant me having to go cap in hand to my employer every time to ask to leave early. The general lack of effort by teachers at that school was visible, homework was rarely marked or marked incorrectly when it was.*

This is pretty rare in my experience. Last parent’s evening appointment at every school I’ve ever worked in has been 19:50. I’ve been to many primary school concerts and events that have finished at 20:30 (not this year, thanks Covid) along with a handful of weekend Fetes throughout the year too.

Bearing in mind my working day is usually at 07:30-17:30, 8pm finishes and weekend events are not exactly my favourite thing to do. Luckily our parents are very appreciative and supportive on the whole.

I do think that if you went to a school where there were pervert teachers and bullying that was not only ignored but sometimes encouraged by certain teachers, you are not always going assume the school or teachers are infallible.
So, I support discipline at school on the whole, I don't ever think my DC are blameless ( I know them lol) but at the same time I will question things I think are wrong, and I don't ever feel guilty about sending an email! To be clear I've not contacted the school this year, but there are some things that need keeping on top of, and despite the fact that the school is very good at newsletters etc they close ranks over the slightest suggestion that sometimes things go under their radar.

@AyeAyeShipAhoy

I didn't say your opinion is invalid. It's just that all of your posts have nothing to do with the OP's questions about behaviour in schools (OP is clearly talking about behaviour in UK schools too) or how high teacher workload is.

Your daughter may well have a teacher who isn't differentiating appropriately but that doesn't mean that teacher doesn't have a high workload. Differentiation is just one tiny aspect of the mountain of tasks that have to be completed each week.

Sorry that should have been for StoppinBy, I don't know why mumsnet always swaps out the names of people you're tagging.

My DCs primary school massively favour day time events so not that rare, only good thing to come out of this shit show is the recording of these events to watch at leisure.