To think many parents don't know what schools are like these days?

[AyeAyeShipAhoy]

It's something I've noticed quite a bit on many threads about teachers and schools. Some parents refer back to their own school days and use that to inform them as to what happens, but things have very much changed since I was at school.

As a teacher (primary) it's one of the hardest jobs I've done (this is my 2nd career, I was in management before so used to hard work and pressure). For one, the workload is huge and regularly spills into my evenings and weekends, affecting my own family time. Then there's the behaviour. But it's also one of the most rewarding jobs too and why I enjoy it.

The positives - a child that has struggled with a concept, getting it right and feeling proud of themselves, and knowing you made a difference. Supporting those kids who can struggle with their learning.

The negatives - being verbally abused - called a f*ing a*hole, cnt and a paedophile. Told to fuck off and been slapped and kicked and dodged flying objects thrown over the years.

I'll be honest, in my first career I never considered this was what was happening in schools. I remember being at school and kids doing low level stuff (humming, whole toilet rolls down the loo - this at secondary though - primary was fine!). It's been a real eye opener seeing what behaviour is like now.

So, teachers, what's your best and worst experiences.

And parents, how aware are you of what actually happens in schools and the workload? Are you aware? Or is this an eye-opener for you too?

PS I feel teaching is a hard job, but not THE hardest job, so this thread is not meant as a competition.

I think of course we refer back to our school days.

My DS was asking about options ( year 9) I talked about how it was in my school years..Found a leaflet online from last year , very similar.

He has been talking about how cold classroom is..I refferrred back to when heating broke at school we put coats on and carried on.

not everything transfers through... My DS a few years ago was on a school trip, caught behind a huge accident ( luckily not involved) was 5 hours late back. However we were regulary updated... As a child our bus did crash on a trip.. We were hours back but before the days of texts even mobile phones ..So phonecalls would of been very limited to 90 parents.

We didn't have an online app to see how child was behaving - it was wait for a phonecall or parents evening. I do remember one boy in our class getting the cane , I am so glad that isn't an option now.

I have minded many teachers children , I do know its a tough job do I know exactly what its like no..

I work in inclusion so basically get the abuse but for a third of a teachers wage.

I beg your pardon twoshineyshoes. How very dare you

That won’t have been aimed at you ohtheroses I’ve had lessons utterly ruined by just 3 kids. So sad for the other 27 who are utterly wonderful and I’m sure have great parents.
I’m starting to find out why the 3 kids who regularly trash my lesson act the way they do. It’s all about their home life.

No one doubts you do the best for your kids.

YyChloedecker
There are far more teachers with subject specific degrees than in the past and most have more academic qualifications than teachers in the past who often merely had a cert Ed from a teacher training college.

And absolutely poor behaviour is the parents fault in lots of cases. Most of the worst behaved children I have encountered (not including those who were practically psychopathic or those with medical diagnoses) have parents who refuse to discipline them and refuse to accept that their children would do anything wrong.

@CamillasHardHat
So definitely not youBupkis
Sadly there are people who would disagree, hence the complete breakdown in relations we have had.

@Smileyaxolotl1 I feel awful for DD and her teachers and her poor lovely 1-1. I try and make sure I'm as open and willing to work with school on whatever they need. I do also feel sick have learnt how to handle her before it gets to "crisis" point now which helps but it should never be a case thst a 5 year old who needs a 14 page management document (on top of her 24 page ehcp) should be in mainstream. They shouldn't have to spend 6 hours managing her. She can't even write her name yet so she isn't learning. She's too heightened when there to ever be able to learn. It's so sad and I know she's far from alone :(

mumofsend
If it’s any comfort to you if I had your daughter in my class I would really appreciate your attitude and would do everything in my power to help you and her access what you need.
Is there anyone on mumsnet who can help with any schools that may be suitable even if they are further away? There are some very knowledgable people on the sen boards.

I think I agree with the PP that is depends on your experience of school as to how much has changed. My DM was a head teacher and I was a pupil at her school. I would regularly be roaming the corridors until quite late whilst she had meetings etc. It was a very rare thing for me to ever get home in time to catch kids' TV, it was lucky if we got back in time for Neighbours. The school was in a deprived area and had a large number of children with SEN and other family issues. The local bobby and Ed Psych were at the school very regularly. DM frequently had very shouty parents to deal with and was often covered in bruises from having to restrain a child to prevent them from causing injury to themselves and others.
I also remember there being various lunch and after school clubs, so that's nothing new.
I used to spend a good chunk of the school holidays in school with DM as she prepped for the next year/term. I also remember being bundled into the car with my duvet a number of times in the middle of the night so she could meet the glazier after windows had been smashed. Overall we spent a lot of time in that building !
From what I can see as a parent, a volunteer for the PA at events, and when I come into school to work occasionally, behaviour is much better at my DCs' school than mine 30yrs ago. They have their trickier kids too, but there are definitely less of them and their attendance figures prove they don't have the same problem with truancy/parents keeping kids off for various reasons that my DM was fighting.

That said, she often bemoaned the growth of paperwork and how it used precious time that could be spent doing interesting and fun stuff with the kids. That trajectory had already begun 30yrs ago when I was at primary school, but I know it is worse now. It was the reason she warned me off teaching.

What I do notice that's different as a parent is homework. I didn't get any until secondary. My Yr2 daughter gets a fair amount already, and even my reception child gets a bit. It must cause even more work for the teacher, and I think the jury is out as to how much primary homework makes a difference to learning outcomes long term (aside from reading)?
And school uniform. It was optional when I was at primary school (not for me though, as DM insisted I set an example!) and it wasn't seen as particularly important. If you did choose uniform, the items were cheap and basic with the option of a sew-on badge. Everything now is very strict (and expensive!), and I can't see how it makes a difference to the DCs' learning.
My DCs school also doesn't do the large intergrated topic learning we did (eg English, history, science, geography, art would all be geared around that term's topic of the Romans). They have topics of course, but other subjects (so far) have been run separately. Although they have an Arts Week each year, they don't seem to do the other random weeks of learning eg I remember a whole week where we had to dress as police officers and solve crimes, learn the phonetic alphabet etc, all run by the police - it was brilliant!

This is your experience OP, not all schools are like this.

It really upsets me Bupkis that so many parents have to fight hard to get the support that their children need.

I am so sorry that you have had to. So many agencies and constraints from the government means that a lot of professionals need to be involved in the support of young people but the teachers at the ‘face of it’ bare the brunt of the criticism (and criticism is fair but it should be acknowledged that other organisations not doing their job or not being able to, will also be contributing to the fight.)

I know that the majority of my time is spent doing the best I can for those children. I therefore have to rely on those other parents to not contact me unless absolutely necessary otherwise I genuinely wouldn’t be able to fit everything in to 24 hours in a day.
It is only some parents (as has been said on this thread too) who act the way the OP describes (just like it is only some teachers who don’t succeed all the time) and the majority of parents and children are absolutely fantastic (and why I still do the job after 17 years and have spent thousands of my own money in that time to get the best for my pupils-it’s not just parents as a previous poster inferred).

It doesn’t mean that the few parents who do make parts of the job hell, can’t ever be talked about.

@oakleaffy like I say it was a rough area. Possibly teachers going into the profession now tend to be from middle class backgrounds so didn't grow up experiencing it so think that things are worse but ime there have always been people who lived like this.

@skankingpiglet agree that the uniform obsession is something that has only happened over the last 20 years and also that back in the day it took a lot more for children to be excluded or otherwise shunted off elsewhere. There were kids at my school who were downright dangerous and I see a lot more intervention and la backup etc for much milder behaviour issues at my kids' schools. I was nervous before they started but it's much better, really like day to night in terms of my experience.

I think in many parts of the U.K. - particularly somewhere like London - the differences between behaviour in State schools can be quite stark.

It's probably true for much of it, but I think even when many parents make comparisons to our own school days that it's often making the comparison of how different it is (both from an adult perspective and how things have changed) than thinking it's exactly same.

Also some things may have similarities even after all this time - as pp have said, whether the negatives sound new will depend on one's frame of reference. I think we can make those comparisons without claiming they'll ever be identical - they're not identical between all schools now. What you're describing sounds a lot like my elementary school (though back then, sometimes it was the teachers swearing and throwing things).

I remember the first time I swore in school, I was 9, sitting in my seat, saying 'fucking bitch, fucking ridiculous' repeatedly because I'd been refused permission to go to the toilet for saying 'Can I' rather than 'May I' (and I still think that was fucking ridiculous). I was not being as quiet as I thought I was, I thought I was muttering, but instead I was getting louder and louder. Even with the changes with mainstream and alternative provisions, there have always been kids like me with, as the pp said, horrible home lives acting out in school. There was a reason I was half living in the counselor's office as one of the 'disturbed' kids as we were called back then.

I do feel a bit sorry for the staff having to put out wildfires stoked and sometimes even started by parents spreading rumours. As pp said, the constant contact just adds to the pressure plus how fast any complaints or rumours can spread through the parent and/or student groups. I've learned over the last month with the new year starting with new parents that a handful can push the perspective of a school by their comments that issues end up magnified and it can throw in uncertainty as to what's going on between what they, staff, and kids are saying. I'm getting used to tuning most of it out and going back to just having no idea what's going on.

@grafittiartist

I also think that schools are just too big now too. It's quite overwhelming for some kids.

This. I much preferred the 3 tier system for this reason

I’m a teacher now! Albeit in the independent sector so a smaller class but still buried under. I have a couple of friends and one family member who firmly believe that the workload outside of a normal school day could be severely reduced by better organisation (they’ve told me this over the last few weeks....it’s rocky with them right now!) This isn’t bashing anyone btw, because I realise if you haven’t been a teacher, you won’t get what has to be done, but it’s just so much more than can be seen....

Obviously first and foremost I have children with me from 8:30 - 3:30. My school has teachers at the lunch table, so I have half an hour lunch play “break” and 20 minutes morning play break, if I’m not on duty! My PPA is broken up into where the children have specialist teachers so it’s not one solid chunk.
I teach reception. I have to plan for the year, the term and then a weekly plan. Now the rough plans do exist but they need adapting each year based on the class and any curriculum changes. EYFS is changing next year so old plans will likely go out the window again.
I think some people just don’t get that planning isn’t just “yes we’ll do maths then English then a bit of art”
Each week I have a planning meeting with the 2 other reception teachers to plan the next week. I have to gather resources, make resources, prep things (for example cutting out tons of paper/prepping craft/ source my own resources. So much research to find new things to use. I have to create worksheets and copy them multiple times a week. I have to plan the same lesson in 3 or 4 different ways for each lesson to meet all abilities. I have to assess how everything went in some shape or form in order to show Ofsted that I am reflecting and evaluating. I’ve just spent my Saturday writing settling in reports (around 300 words x 18 children). It’s taken me until this week to complete base line assessments and then had the joy of taking all evenings this week to input, plot and assess the data and change the planning again. Everyday I’m answering emails. I’ve been sorting the Christmas play this week ready for after half term so rehearsals can start.
As I’m in Early Years I don’t really have to take home books to mark as I can do this as I go - however I have to make observations and build up portfolios of evidence and as I can’t type all observations up on the spot, these pile up as post it’s and I have to then upload and link to the EYFS. I have a mountain of paperwork to do for the two children in my class displaying high levels of need and clearly in need of an EHCP - extra meetings on schedule with the Senco and the evidence takes time to write up.
Children’s progress has to be tracked. Takes time to track each child accurately. At this age, I have to write the title 18 times in a row because they can’t yet. These little things take time.
Plus as a subject leader the extra load that comes with that. Making sure your subject has all resources needed across all year groups, not just your own. Chasing other teachers for their plans for your subject, evaluating them and feeding back.

I love it though, and I think that while most parents don’t understand what fully goes on, most don’t hate us! I think most people just don’t get that it’s never ending - there’s always something.
I think many also don’t get just how much the behaviour is an issue - I don’t think the behaviour is necessarily worse, bad behaviour has always existed, but nowadays the backlash for giving a child a telling off (and sometimes a whole load of positive reinforcement and polite asking and firmer words just don’t work) is often not worth it. There’s been an attitude shift. I remember getting told off at school for different things. Teacher would tell my mum, i would be told off on the spot in front of teacher. Nowadays, when I tell a parent their child is having trouble behaving, let’s say something minor for example they won’t stop talking and messing around during a story, instead of “you need to listen to your teacher” like I bet many of us on here were told, it’s “Rose says she wasn’t the only one being silly and someone was distracting her so it’s not her fault” or such. Or a letter of complaint, or just an email which takes even more time. Not all parents I should add, but a significant enough portion that we all really have to watch our step.
Even something simple as reading books. Reception class, the children who have demonstrated they can blend are starting to have reading books sent home - I’ve been screamed at this week by a mum who said the book was far too easy and clearly I don’t know what I’m doing - so I explained that I’m still assessing their current levels, i’ll read with the child today again and if indeed it’s too easy then I will bump them up, but I don’t want to go too hard too soon. Her emails about these books have just been paragraphs and paragraphs of how she knows better then I do. It’s crushing. I gave her child a more challenging book with sounds and words we are yet to cover in class but she knew lots of, and she was doing well but certainly not fluent, so decided to give it a try. I’m then screamed at for knocking her child’s confidence because now it’s too hard. I try to explain its not just about decoding words and reading them, but about understanding what’s happening in the book, expression, looking ahead in the sentence......but according to some parents I know nothing. It’s demoralising.

But for all those parents there are more supportive ones. And watching the children learn and accomplish their goals is just great. Plus their little anecdotes of life.

Also fully agree with the school size and uniform issue!

Most of the secondary schools around me are 8 or 10 form entry. So big! 300 a year group is insane. Talk about getting lost in the middle.

Likewise the uniform - I remember at primary (90’s) it was compulsory but quite relaxed - school jumper / cardigan or a plain school colour version (my Nan knitted me several school cardigans with coloured buttons!) Black or grey school skirt / pinafore / trousers / shorts and everyone had different ones from the variety of shops. Shirt or polo shirt, socks or tights - white, grey, black, navy - up to you. Loads of the primaries around me are now compulsory shirts and ties, a couple of state ones now have blazers, one has full blown kilt and blazer and logo shirts etc and comes down hard on penalties if you try and buy an alternative - and it’s a very mixed economic area!
Double agree on SEN provision available. Insane and a big let down for the children.

I had a very sheltered education, junior was very naice local state school....I remember no bad behaviour to speak off. Senior was private, all girls and v academic. There was none of the behaviour described on here, it would have been unthinkable! I feel very grateful for all of you who are working in schools now, the challenges sound overwhelming. You are right that I don't know how bad it is.

Genuine question which I know is possibly hard to answer...why are so many of the pupils so badly behaved? Why are they so rough, frankly? Obviously I am not referring to those with SEN.

Speak of, apologies for typos!

I have never heard of the swearing, name calling, and throwing things in the primary at all! Neither ours or anyone I know.

I've heard all kinds of swearing, name calling and dealt with children throwing things in all three of the primary schools I've taught in. Clearly you would be shocked at what comes out of some of their mouths. I still am!

As for secondary, I've got 3 secondary children. My youngest entered Year 7 this year and she is genuinely shocked at the vile swearing and name calling whenever adults aren't in the vicinity. And my boys tell me about the daily fights ... especially this year, and say the teachers don't even give detentions for them anymore as they really are daily and the teachers are just tired of it. And they go to an 'excellent' school!

I've also had to clear classrooms to get them away from children who were threatening to throw chairs at others and tipping over tables.

Parents really have no idea.

I only learn from on here. what schools are like these days, and it all sounds like a very different , and more difficult environment than schools of way back. For one thing, I am always taken aback by hearing about very difficult children,who can be out of control, and demanding, and have very poor behaviour in class etc.

Years ago, parents tried to make sure their children were well behaved before entering their school years. Children were disciplined more in school, even from a young age. I don't mean getting severe punishment, but teachers were able to be quite stern with the children if they were acting up so to speak, But it seems to be not allowed now, or else the parents will complain about it.

@ithinkiveseenthisfilmbefore

I have never heard of the swearing, name calling, and throwing things in the primary at all! Neither ours or anyone I know.

I've heard all kinds of swearing, name calling and dealt with children throwing things in all three of the primary schools I've taught in. Clearly you would be shocked at what comes out of some of their mouths. I still am!

As for secondary, I've got 3 secondary children. My youngest entered Year 7 this year and she is genuinely shocked at the vile swearing and name calling whenever adults aren't in the vicinity. And my boys tell me about the daily fights ... especially this year, and say the teachers don't even give detentions for them anymore as they really are daily and the teachers are just tired of it. And they go to an 'excellent' school!

I went to a private girls school and although there was a fair bit of arguing and bitchyness it was generally a nice environment. When dd started her state secondary I was shocked by the stories she came home with (DH wasn't as his school was similar). It's considered a good school in a naice area. My dd was way too timid and suffered a lot in that environment. I still feel bad that she had to go to that a school. A smaller one would have suited her much better but there were no options for that which we could afford.

I don't think a lot of people know what being a teacher is really like.

A lot of my friends from university are teachers because our degree lends itself well to teaching. They're a mix of primary and secondary, naice and not so naice schools.

One friend didn't even last her NQT year before she'd had a breakdown and left. That was 7 years ago and she's never returned to teaching and never will.

Another friend said she was getting married, having a baby within a year and then never returning to teaching full time because it's too much.

All of them say it's the paperwork/planning and the parents that ruin it for them, not the children.

None of them have led charmed lives or come from wealthy backgrounds so all knew what to expect from state schools.

They're all wonderful people and went into it because they had a passion for it, rather than because it was a job, but I can see them getting further worn down year by year.

When my son was in primary school I was aware that his headmaster had more trouble with parents than kids so one difference i noticed at his school myself was how demanding parents are these days

When I was young our parents dropped us off and picked us up and went to the school once or twice a year unless something major happened.

There was calling the school but no 24/7 contact and needing to know everything your kids did at school every second teachers were allowed to spend more time teaching than parent wrangling

Working in partnership...school, parents, outside professionals, with the child at the centre - I thought this was part the process in getting the best for children.

You are not the problem parent. The problem parents are the ones who think their little darling should not have their phone removed because they pay for the Fing thing.

The ones that complain that their darling can wear trainers to school because they cost more than my shoes.

The ones who will not allow detention because their child was 'only asking a question'. I've said on another thread one question I was asked was 'do you take it up the arse miss?'