To think many parents don't know what schools are like these days?

[AyeAyeShipAhoy]

It's something I've noticed quite a bit on many threads about teachers and schools. Some parents refer back to their own school days and use that to inform them as to what happens, but things have very much changed since I was at school.

As a teacher (primary) it's one of the hardest jobs I've done (this is my 2nd career, I was in management before so used to hard work and pressure). For one, the workload is huge and regularly spills into my evenings and weekends, affecting my own family time. Then there's the behaviour. But it's also one of the most rewarding jobs too and why I enjoy it.

The positives - a child that has struggled with a concept, getting it right and feeling proud of themselves, and knowing you made a difference. Supporting those kids who can struggle with their learning.

The negatives - being verbally abused - called a f*ing a*hole, cnt and a paedophile. Told to fuck off and been slapped and kicked and dodged flying objects thrown over the years.

I'll be honest, in my first career I never considered this was what was happening in schools. I remember being at school and kids doing low level stuff (humming, whole toilet rolls down the loo - this at secondary though - primary was fine!). It's been a real eye opener seeing what behaviour is like now.

So, teachers, what's your best and worst experiences.

And parents, how aware are you of what actually happens in schools and the workload? Are you aware? Or is this an eye-opener for you too?

PS I feel teaching is a hard job, but not THE hardest job, so this thread is not meant as a competition.

The parents are what will drive me out of education without a shadow of a doubt

And you are contactable all the time. Anyone can access my work email via the school website. Kids message me via teams at 10pm at night asking random questions. They are all very lovely but it takes a lot of time to deal with it all. I’m trying to do it all at school.
I arrive at 7.30am and leave at 4.30pm but it’s physically impossible to do everything within those hours. I’m not even close, primary workload is even higher than mine (at least small kids are cute though).

Expecting the pupils to be completely proficient at Teams and numerous other online learning, leads to a ton of requests for help.

MushMonster what a load of drivel ..you really have no idea!

Just one tiny new Covid related 'duty' teachers have

Before Covid - ONE hour by two members of Senior Team at local bus stop (other teams at other bus stops) - corralling the arseholes onto buses, negotiating with bus drivers

After Covid - TWO hours every day as buses quite understandably drive by as full with 20 people on now. And if the kids are pushing to get on/refuse to get off (this happens every day - yes obvs they get detentions) it holds everything up

So 5 hours extra work a week for DH with just one tiny, shitty duty

In my opinion they shouldn't do it - once off school premises fuck it - but no, they push members of the public aside at bus stops - last year a kid pushed an old lady over and her hip broke. And apparently they have to 'work with the community'

So now all duties last until all kids have gone from bus stops - it's just more shit getting teachers to be police because the police won't do it

Right ok, so in my daughters school, both primary and secondary, children are (well were before covid...) shuffled around according to their level. So my daughter had a different teacher for maths for example. They worked this way I suppose so each teacher only prepares material to each level? At least in part. The homework is same for them all, and the books I were shown with her work were the same as the other parents waiting at parents evenings.
You were the ones who asked. But it looks like you do not really want to know, so bye bye

I am a parent
I have never heard of the swearing, name calling, and throwing things in the primary at all! Neither ours or anyone I know

I have been in a classroom waiting for members of SLT to remove a child, with said child repeatedly calling the teacher a fucking bastard and telling him I hope you die. My really good friend whose daughter was in that classroom and heard that sort of thing weekly never told her Mum that because years later her daughter mentioned the swearing when I was there and was looking at me and my friend was horrified . We also have "calm down" rooms where children are put to calm the fuck down, so I am trying to do intervention maths and all you can hear is the door being kicked to hell and a child inside screaming let me out you fuckers. Not the same child as above.

This by the way is an outstanding primary in a truly lovely area. Pupils have broken fingers of LSAs (teaching assistants) kicked, slapped and punched staff of all levels. There are forms that are filled in that detail injuries. We do internal exclusions so the child spends the day in different offices of SLT. Our school is locked down during the day internally due to the number of runners we have, so we have to use a fob to open doors to other year groups.

Most schools these days will have a "behavioural team" usually listed under something like social and emotional health or support. These children are in all schools, your children just don't necessarily tell you about them. It isn't something the school tell you in assembly. These children have a legal right to be educated amongst their peers.

I think some parents believe that teaching is about teaching, but it is about so much more, planning, behavioural discipline, assessments, differentiation for different abilities, getting children into a classroom and keeping them there. I am merely a volunteer, I absolutely love it and luckily I am not trained to deal with behavioural issues so I am just the extra help in a classroom.

The worst part - parents interfering

Really sad to see this. I have tried so hard to work with the school my ds (who has conplex needs) attends, and have been utterly broken by the experience.

Working in partnership...school, parents, outside professionals, with the child at the centre - I thought this was part the process in getting the best for children.

@MushMonster

I am a parent. I have never heard of the swearing, name calling, and throwing things in the primary at all! Neither ours or anyone I know. In secondary, I do hear about some older children smoking, and a sharp object smuggled in. Which must have been quite an awful thing for the teachers to deal with. On the workload, I am at a loss of why is it so much? The curriculum does not change that much from year to year. So you should have most of it ready. The work that they give to mine is not that much. And on the later years it is on-line, so you do not need to even print it. When I was a child though, the teacher did not print anything for us. We had to copy it from the board or our book ourselves. On the reading of work/ exams, I can see it spilling over your own time once they are on the later years. Can you elaborate a bit why it takes you the extra time?

I love the ignorance. I work in a primary school, I have been hit, kicked, bitten and spat on. The curriculum changes regularly so no you can’t use the same stuff year on year. And just because your child doesn’t bring much printed stuff home doesn’t mean that a teacher isn’t using their own time for planning and preparation, let alone all the other stuff like marking etc that most teachers have to do in their own time as well!

Interesting thread!

Twenty years ago, my school was mediocre but the behaviour wasn't as bad as that described in the OP. However I had friends at another school with a horrendous reputation and I do think the behaviour was on a par with what you have described. Genuinely shocking stuff. So I do think it's always happened, but it sounds like maybe that bad behaviour is more widespread now? Why do you (or other teachers) think that is?

What's the best way to keep our own kids away from that culture? Are there any schools which are better, on the whole? Private schools? Faith schools?

I do think there's been an obvious shift in how parents relate to the school/teachers though, that feels quite obvious to me as a fellow parent.

It's been a real eye opener seeing what behaviour is like now.

Maybe that depends on the school, that sort of behaviour was happening when I was at school and that was over 20 years ago. Although anything physical was taken very seriously, kids were usually expelled for that. I remember a kid swinging chairs about, a teacher needing to restrain a pupil, the swearing, disruptions etc.

@MushMonster

I am a parent. I have never heard of the swearing, name calling, and throwing things in the primary at all! Neither ours or anyone I know. In secondary, I do hear about some older children smoking, and a sharp object smuggled in. Which must have been quite an awful thing for the teachers to deal with. On the workload, I am at a loss of why is it so much? The curriculum does not change that much from year to year. So you should have most of it ready. The work that they give to mine is not that much. And on the later years it is on-line, so you do not need to even print it. When I was a child though, the teacher did not print anything for us. We had to copy it from the board or our book ourselves. On the reading of work/ exams, I can see it spilling over your own time once they are on the later years. Can you elaborate a bit why it takes you the extra time?

I thought that, until I married a teacher. Former teacher now. The workload is utterly ridiculous. The constant measuring, the pushing the boundaries of every ability level. Constant changing curriculum. It's madness. I don't know why anyone would be a teacher.

mushmonster you really have no idea of the depth of understanding and knowledge teachers have of each individual child. They don't just churn out the same work every term or year.....work is set dependent on each child's need. Teachers are professionals!

The behaviour at my DC's cofe primary was fine. Nice area, supportive parents. Outstanding, top 96% school. 96% however was achieved by the parents on the whole. The standards of the teachers' grammar, spelling and maths were concerning on too many occasions.

DD went to a holy grail cofe girls school for two years. Again outstanding. Teaching was pedestrian (many excellent teachers left after the departure of the old head). Behaviour was disgraceful. In dd's cohort: violence, foul language against staff, pyromania, theft, notwithstanding the constant low level disruption. The head introduced two behaviour codes: one draconian for the well behaved girls; one flexible for the badly behaved girls because they didn't have the same support.

We moved dd to the independent sector after yr 8. She was by no means the cleverest. No child who stayed at that school went to Oxbridge or into medicine. Those who left did.

The decline correlates with poor educational standards among teachers and if heads do not know what constitutes poor behaviour and how it should be managed, how very dare any school teacher way their finger at parents. School standards in the state sector need to be raised very significantly.

For context my dc are 22 and 25 now. I was deeply shocked by state standards, particularly re behaviour at secondary but it wasn't due to parental failings at all.

@Enrico

HRM, I guess it depends on your point of reference. I went to a rough school in a rough area where the following were fairly regular: big violent fights with kids throwing tables around, breaking windows, doing proper punching; classmates getting picked up by the police at registration for what they'd done the night before (they would have gone AWOL after register which is why the police used to come then); gas, glue, smack etc in the toilets, you never went there to pee that wasn't what they were for; sexual assaults a part of life although they did pay attention when there was an actual rape; paedo head teacher (ended up in prison which I understand was rare but he was fucking blatant); parents fighting and gobbing off about kid fights, couple of incidents where one pulled a knife on the other; parents marching into school and swearing at senior staff about I don't even know what fucking imagined slight which we as kids thought was funny but must have been rough on teachers. I now live in a different town and my own kids' schools have their issues but don't seem as bad.

Holy Crap. That sounds severe.

Was this in UK?

A relative taught in Vauxhall {Art} and said some of the kids were terrifying, but they didn't seem to give her a hard time as such.

But she said the fights in the loos were pretty serious.

{Between girls!}

In the end she went to a private girl's school then changed career to work with women in Nepal.
Much less stressful.

@Bupkis

The worst part - parents interfering

Really sad to see this. I have tried so hard to work with the school my ds (who has conplex needs) attends, and have been utterly broken by the experience.

Working in partnership...school, parents, outside professionals, with the child at the centre - I thought this was part the process in getting the best for children.

It is sad yes and the current system (and removal of majority of alternative provisions mostly closed in the 2000s that previous posters on this thread have said their children needed) makes it so much harder to support children like your DS. In schools of up to 1800 children, it is impossible to directly work with each and every parent.

Wag their finger.

Parents need to step up.. it is not just the schools that are at fault. Lazy parenting..then trying to lay the blame at the schools door..

I was at quite a rough comp in the 90s dds at an all girls state in a naice area - they are having a far more genteel time than dh or I had!

Secondary here. I sometimes wish we had cameras for parents to see and hear what their kids get up to in school. Daily verbal abuse and physical intimidation of teachers by students and parents, rubbish thrown around classrooms, drawing on tables and walls, wall displays ripped off, toilets vandalised, fights with severe injuries that need hospitalisation, sexual assault, arson, drugs. This is a “normal” working class comprehensive and I could go on.

@Bupkis

The worst part - parents interfering

Really sad to see this. I have tried so hard to work with the school my ds (who has conplex needs) attends, and have been utterly broken by the experience.

Working in partnership...school, parents, outside professionals, with the child at the centre - I thought this was part the process in getting the best for children.

This is not you, this is the parent who complains about every tiny incident or believed slight against their child. I will give you an example.

The last week of term before Christmas the teachers, including the job share whose day it was to be off, sat in a classroom and planned the next term's maths topics. We have 3 classes per year group. I looked after the children in another classroom (with another LSA) and put on a film for them to watch.The next day we had a parent complain that the dvd was put on during "core" teaching ie maths and English teaching time as it was a morning and that teachers had better be teaching their child and not slacking off watching a dvd. This was in writing to the class teacher.

Cue Easter, same thing again, except this time little Jonny is kept out of the classroom of the children watching the dvd along with a couple of children who voluntarily wanted to write a book report. Jonny has big kick off meltdown why me why me? I didn't choose this. Asks everyone at the table did you want to do this. Totally confused as to why he is not watching the film with his mates. He bursts into tears and we cannot calm him down at all. This is KS2 not 4 year olds. The teacher ended up ringing his mother to see if he could watch the film instead as this again was in core teaching time explaining that he had been crying for 25 minutes. No lie.

So definitely not you Bupkis the nightmare parents are the ones who usually start in reception complaining that their child should be playing Joseph in the nativity.

I'm prepared to get flamed, but things weren't nearly as bad in these days:

Our Parents said kids behaved much better back in the 60's

Bring back ''Grice Pudding!''

I'm an ex teacher and now work as a TA.

Not all schools have children who are badly behaved and violent. My school is a primary and aggressive behaviour is rare. Teachers do not get hurt or sworn at on regular basis. Behaviour problems are mainly low level stuff. Our biggest headache is parental pressure and children who are 'too precious' and don't support the school in disciplining their child.

I beg your pardon twoshineyshoes. How very dare you.

We stepped up as parents:

£300 maintenance grants
Fund raisers
Sent well behaved, hard working children

And the school allowed violence and disruption and failed to deal with it.

Once at primary; twice at secondary I had to say to a school teacher when the voice was raised in my direction and for no reason except to ask me to do something "who do you think you are speaking to - I am not 8, (or 11 or 12) I am a professional adult". Unbelievable sense of self importance and entitlement from individuals who clearly think it's acceptable to swear and be violent because all they do about such behaviour is make excuses for it rather than deal with it. If teachers know not the difference between right and wrong they can hardly whinge that parents don't - usually the parents whose children need excellent role models.

The decline correlates with poor educational standards among teachers
I have tried searching online but can find no evidence of this. Is this just your opinion? I would have thought there were many other more obvious reasons for the changes described the OP.

For context my dc are 22 and 25 now. I was deeply shocked by state standards, particularly re behaviour at secondary but it wasn't due to parental failings at all.
Really? So parents have absolutely no influence on their own children?

mumofsend
I’m so sorry that the system has meant that children like yours have to be in mainstream.
It’s not fair on her, her teacher or the rest of the class. Inclusion was a nice idea and has worked well for some children (particularly those with high functioning autism or physical disabilities) but for others it must be Hellish. I currently teach a year 7 class where one child has a reading age of 5 and cannot access anything we do despite differentiated worksheets. He is disruptive as everything a mainstream school will do is beyond him.
I also teach a class where 5 children have English as a second language and are barely literate in their own.
All of this takes extra time as well as trying to stretch the more able students.
It’s not like years ago when most teachers Just wrote on the board and hoped for the best.

@ChloeDecker
It is sad yes and the current system (and removal of majority of alternative provisions mostly closed in the 2000s that previous posters on this thread have said their children needed) makes it so much harder to support children like your DS. In schools of up to 1800 children, it is impossible to directly work with each and every parent.
My ds is in a CNRB in a mainstream primary school of 300 children. He has a full EHCP.
There are, of course, issues with funding, but I think there is also an issue of the culture within a school. I have seen it in the attitude to other parents in the school and with families I work with (in early years)...in the references to not being 'that parent'...in the countless stories (in rl, on here and from other forums) from other SEN parents of being blamed for their children's difficulties and the constant struggle to garner support, and ensure an education for their child.
The history of 'inclusion' is a messy one, and yes, you are right...the mass closure of specialist provision has left a lot of problems....but I do not think that is the only reason why there is this issue of the perception of parents as a problem and an interference.