To think this I should complain - possible sexism in year 4?

[GlummyMcGlummerson]

DD is in year 4, a new girl started at the beginning of term. I've been chatting to her mum in the playground and she said she's painfully shy and a bit worried about fitting in. DD(8) has said that she's tried playing with her in the playground but she doesn't say much and is so shy she often slumps off if there's a group situation.

Anyway, DD told me that all the girls in her class got a house point each yesterday. She said it's because they all, on instruction from the teacher, played with the new girl. I asked was it just the girls and not the boys getting house points? And she said the teacher only asked the girls to play with her because (in the words of the teacher apparently) "the boys aren't sensible enough to play nicely with her".

Now, as a teacher myself (though I teach older teens) I am well aware we have to take what's said at home by children with a huge pinch of salt. But, DD doesn't tend to make things up or embellish, she's very mature for her age. So, let's say we are taking what she says as true - AIBU to think it's sexist that only the girls have to do the care giving and welcoming to other pupils and all of the boys are written of as hopeless? There are quite a number of boisterous boys in the class but also some very friendly, sweet and sensitive boys too.

I have virtual parents evening next week and thinking of raising it. WWYD?

@RepeatSwan if you were a teacher trying to help would you assume she is one of the 99% who would feel even more shy and more on edge with a boy no matter how quiet he is or would you think oh well but she might be that 1% 'let's see what happens and if she does feel even more scared and shy at least we are not stereo typing' even if it made it worse for the 99%

[quote lovepickledlimes]@RepeatSwan if you were a teacher trying to help would you assume she is one of the 99% who would feel even more shy and more on edge with a boy no matter how quiet he is or would you think oh well but she might be that 1% 'let's see what happens and if she does feel even more scared and shy at least we are not stereo typing' even if it made it worse for the 99%[/quote]
The numbers 99 and 1 were made up for the purposes of the post, they are irrelevant. The point about stereotyping is it is wrong.

I think the issue in your post is 'would you assume'... No one should assume. Assuming is usually based on stereotyping. Stereotyping is wrong.

@RepeatSwan but sometimes if the girl is totally new and the teacher knows nothing about her what else should she base it on?

[quote lovepickledlimes]@RepeatSwan but sometimes if the girl is totally new and the teacher knows nothing about her what else should she base it on?[/quote]

Perhaps not stereotyping? If you didn't know, it would make more sense to ask everyone to play with her rather than reinforce girl/boy division.

I agree that stereotyping is bad, but the teacher didn't say boys in general aren't sensible enough to play with girls. She was referring to the boys in her class. It is not beyond the realm of possibility that she has (maybe correctly) judged that all the boys in her class (maybe not that many of them if it's a small school) are not likely to play kindly or sensibly with a new girl. For that reason I wouldn't bring it up with the teacher. What do you think she's going to reply? "Yes I think all boys are silly." or "Well, I know my class. From what I've seen of the boys, they're unlikely to play kindly with the sensitive new girl and I'm worried she'll be upset."?

You're just looking for problems.

How would someone decide child X would get on with 'girls' better than 'boys' without that being sexist at root?

I teach in 5 primary schools. At primary school the majority of girls play with girls and boys play with boys. It was ever thus. If this is also the case in the OP's dd's school, I don't think it would have been very kind or fair of the teacher to use the new girl as a means of demonstrating her non-sexist credentials.

@RepeatSwan so forcing the kids she is scared of onto her?

No it is not sexist. People tend to make friends with their own gender so it was reasonable, the teacher was trying to help the new girl. Why would you want to cause trouble over such a non event, find a hobby.

Maybe I misread but I thought the teacher gave the house points after the girls including the new girl. That's not bribery, that is the kind of reward that is given in many schools, for helpfulness, kindness and other values. Maybe the new girl came from an all girls background? The comment about the boys wasn't good, if it was repeated word for word, which it may not have been by an 8yo.

I agree with you OP. Everyday sexism is so insidious and needs pointing out politely to those who unwillingly perpetuate it.

At my workplace we are increasingly targeting so called positive gender stereotyping - which often tends to hold women back with women being seen as competent and caring but not brilliant and not board room or head of function material.

This is essentially positive sexism towards the girls but negative sexism towards the boys. Both are problematic

At my workplace we are increasingly targeting so called positive gender stereotyping - which often tends to hold women back with women being seen as competent and caring but not brilliant and not board room or head of function material.

This is a commendable attitude when dealing with adults, but to apply it to the school playground is naïve and shows a lack of understanding of children.

Teachers need to find ways to model and teach non-sexist behaviour. Encouraging boys and girls to work and play together is good and important. Making boys and girls to play together is not the way forward, especially not with a shy new girl.

" Making boys and girls to play together is not the way forward, especially not with a shy new girl."

But bribing girls to make friends is fine, is it?

Surely the teacher should have encouraged all the children to be welcoming and friendly to the incomer, not some out with "the boys aren't sensible enough to play nicely with her".

Children will find their own friends, and I'm sure that the teacher had an idea what the boys are like, but the reasoning is wrong.

Gender stereotyping is everywhere. Before long it will be Gifts for her and Gifts for him season - the usual scented candle/bubble bath for mum, slippers/hip flask for dad, etc.

I might encourage dd to challenge the reason given but you have no idea about why the child moved. My dd moved at a slightly younger age because in her previous school a group of boys, had decided that they would kiss all the girls. Dd refused and by the time we found out they had been pursuing her for weeks and it had escalated to being in class too.

The new school were obviously aware of the background and supported her. Over a few years she came to trust the boys in her new class but the last thing she would have needed was for boys being bribed to play with her when she was new. Obviously we didn't tell all the parents in week one why she had moved, just that she had been unhappy.

However gentle and sweet the boys in the class might be she would not have wanted to play with them and them being bribed to play with her would have made things worse. She might have moved due to domestic abuse. Yes challenge the reason given but you don't know the girl and why the teacher wanted the girls to play with her.

@lazylinguist I’m afraid I don’t agree. It is easy to praise all children for being kind when they are and to do so in a way that shows that it is not a gendered characteristic.

Most of the examples I come across of boys and girls being treated differently are totally unnecessary and easy to correct

Eg girls praised as a group for being the best, being the quietest, being the most sensible

Very bad for the girls to be stereotyped in that way and also harsh on boys who are achieving those behaviours

Separating girls from boys and sending them to do activities separately in a co Ed setting. I was really sad to see this at the co Ed nursery school setting I sent dd to. I felt it sent a very inappropriate message that boys and girls were different and should do things apart. It seemed to occur every day

Getting boys to get girls to go first at school - as a woman I feel this is outmoded and promotes a view of women as fragile and in need of looking after

All the above are very easy to avoid in a school setting

@RepeatSwan It's not an assumption but fact that most girls at primary level are friends with other girls not boys. While this is something we may want to change in the future for the sake of this little shy girl who needs to make friends it makes sense to do the thing that is most likely to make her feel comfortable more quickly.

Yes it is sexism. If you do decide to mention it, I'd say something like "My daughter thinks the new girl might like to play with the boys too" or words to that effect and see how the conversation goes from there.

As a teacher yourself, you know what stresses the teacher will be under at the moment, I'm sure you wouldn't want the teacher to feel even more stress than they currently do. How you phrase it can make all the difference.

But I don't actually know the teacher or any of the children. What I do know is this thread is full.of sexist stereotyping.

I completely agree. We don’t know what the teacher did but perpetuating the idea that all boys are noisy hall kicking idiots doesn’t help anyone.

Which is coming from this thread, not the teacher.

But bribing girls to make friends is fine, is it?
The OP does not indicate that the teacher bribed anyone. She asked the girls to play with the new girl, then later rewarded them for nicely doing as they'd been asked - a pretty standard use of house points etc, no?

It is easy to praise all children for being kind when they are and to do so in a way that shows that it is not a gendered characteristic.

That doesn't contradict anything in my posts. Where did I suggest that you shouldn't generally praise children for being kind?

What I'm trying to say is that it is perfectly ok to say "Girls, could you please play with the new girl?". And it's also perfectly ok to say that you feel that the specific boys in your class would be unlikely to play sensibly or nicely with the new girl. That doesn't mean that in other classes or other schools there aren't boys who play with girls, or boys who could be relied upon to play nicely with a new girl (though of course she may very likely still prefer to have the girls play with her).

Essentially... I've taught lots of kind boys. I've taught some primary age boys who prefer to hang out with the girls or in mixed groups. I've certainly taught lots of boys who could be expected to play nicely with a new girl (if she wanted them to).

But what on earth makes you think you know the specific boys in the OP"s dd's class better than their teacher does? I expect in many cases it's the usual "I used to go to school so I know all about schools and can tell teachers how to do their job" attitude tbh.

Boys can have a variety of personality traits, just because the teacher sees boys playing football or rushing round doesn't mean they can't also be caring and supportive.

My eldest is what people would immediate call a typical boy, (when he was younger obviously) he was football mad, loud and never sat still. He was in year 1, I was taking his little brother into reception and needed to speak to the teacher. I came out and the mother of a new girl in eldest son's class was waiting for me. She told me my son had made her cry, I was horrified and asked what he had done. She explained her daughter had really bad eczema and she was having a particularly bad flare up, the teacher had told the children to get into twos and hold hands as they were going on a nature walk on the field. The little girl next to her daughter refused to hold her hand, she turned to other girls and was told she had snake skin and no one would hold her hand. My son (little hooligan that he usually was) walked over and took her hand. She said as she left the class she had cried and wanted me to know how wonderful he was. I have never felt prouder of him.

[quote lovepickledlimes]@RepeatSwan so forcing the kids she is scared of onto her?[/quote]
I don't think the child has said they were scared of any children? Apologies if I missed that detail but I thought the teacher said the boys weren't sensible.

The whole thread is really about what hat the teacher said and did.