What are we doing wrong with our boys?

[OhNoItsMonday]

NC for this. Mum of boys here.

I love my DC to pieces. They're too young for school yet. But I've already noticed that, whenever you hear complaints about badly behaved children in the classroom (or often outside it), it usually although not always seems to be boys who are being complained about. Just wondering why that is? What are we doing wrong with our boys?

Really interesting thread, the stereotype is clearly so imbedded in society that even people disagreeing that “boys will be boys” is damaging, then go on to confirm their own stereotypical ideas by saying boys “naturally have more energy” “naturally want to run & play” I’m a mum to both a son & daughter, their energy levels and desire to run & play are equal & my daughter can be boisterous when she wants to , just as well as my son can be gentle when he wants to. As some of the pop’s have said it’s likely the girls have had higher expectations placed on their behaviour

Pp’s not pops*

@Bluehues

Really interesting thread, the stereotype is clearly so imbedded in society that even people disagreeing that “boys will be boys” is damaging, then go on to confirm their own stereotypical ideas by saying boys “naturally have more energy” “naturally want to run & play” I’m a mum to both a son & daughter, their energy levels and desire to run & play are equal & my daughter can be boisterous when she wants to , just as well as my son can be gentle when he wants to. As some of the pop’s have said it’s likely the girls have had higher expectations placed on their behaviour

It’s clear how when people have children that conform to gender stereotypes (boisterous boys, placid girls) they believe it’s down to sex hormones and innate differences. When people have gentle boys or energetic girls, they believe it’s individual personalities or good parenting.

IN GENERAL, boys tend to be more naturally active. To sit at a desk for hours at a time does not suit all children, but sitting them at a desk is the most economical way to educate children. They need to be offered activity.

gender bias is what it is, goes deep into our schools and our society, 'boys will be boys' club, expected behaviour & expected response.

@Lotsofwishes In my class there are 2/3 boys and 1/3 girls. The girls are worse than the boys

@Pickagoddamnname My eldests year was 75% boys but the issues were all with the behaviour and disruption caused by the girls. My youngest is 50/50 and I can’t say there’s a difference in behaviour and disruption, it’s a good class.

I think this is interesting, when my DD was badly bullied the class was about 30% girls, although DD was 8 when she went to the school I was told there had been problems with that class since reception. It seemed to be a very distinct pecking order with the girls, the Queen Bee, the cleverest, the sporty one and they wouldn't stand any deviation from that, DD suffered and alot, it seemed to be that she was ahead of the class when she joined and the clever girl objected, she was popular with the boys (she has 3 brothers, her best friend from nursery was a boy) and the Queen Bee objected to that. They joined together and orchestrated a vicious campaign against her which ended with behaviour that was potentially life threatening. It was only at that point that the Head would accept there was a problem, I think the fact it was witnessed by a Governor probably helped.

Sorry went off on a tangent there, my point was about is there something about the balance of the class or the number of girls that can cause these problems?

@Diverami

IN GENERAL, boys tend to be more naturally active. To sit at a desk for hours at a time does not suit all children, but sitting them at a desk is the most economical way to educate children. They need to be offered activity.

How many hours exactly do they sit at their desks and what age?

In early years there's barely any times at desks.
People keep saying that. Up to ks2 the most they spend at a desk is half an hour in one go.

From ks2 the most is 2 hours in the afternoon if no play,no PE or another interactive activity.

So when do these hours on end at a young age happen?

We've had a couple of short breaks in different areas of the UK this summer, and tend to visit English Heritage and National Trust sites.

What DH originally pointed out to me and I noticed at every place we visited, was families with 2 or more boys would arrive and the kids would be chasing each other around the site, shouting and screaming while both parents would stand there with that stupid expression on their faces and not make any attempt to rein them in.

Families with girls would arrive and the girls would be told sit there, stay with me, constantly. Families with a girl and a boy, the boy would be allowed to run riot while the girl would be kept next to mother.

All of these were primary aged, all the men had beards and caps. Once DH had pointed it out it was really obvious. No consideration whatsoever for their surroundings or for the other people visiting. It seems to be part of the Hipster Culture.

My DC are mainly adults and I'm so sad we seem to be going backwards. I have 2 girls and 3 boys and can categorically say that boys are no more naturally boisterous than girls are. All children are unique, not representative of their biological sex.

I agree that all children are unique.
I have a sporty, outgoing, active boy who struggles with fine motor skills and is behind academically at school.
I also have a non sporty boy who loves arts, crafts, sitting and chatting, and loves animals and nature. He has great fine motor skills and is ahead academically at school.

I personally think we are failing them:

• send them to school too young
• don’t play enough sport / physical activity

My kids go to a village school in the north of England where they get half an hour of PE a week, which is sometimes dance, are not allowed ball games at school for health and safety reasons... of course the boys will play up - they’re bored and they need to run and shout and climb trees. But instead we try to get them to sit in a seat and watch butterflies so nobody gets a grazed knee. I think we are failing them, I agree. Girls are much better equipped to sit in a classroom than boys. And that is why they handle it better. I feel like I’m trying to tame a wild animal with my two boys.

The amount of times I have to speak to the boys in my playground about hitting eachother etc is ALL the time. I don’t know where it comes from as it’s certainly not encouraged in school and wether it’s a boy or girl we discourage rough play so I don’t believe there is a boys will be boys attitude in the education sector. To be honest though the girls also play up but in a different way, they tend to be more verbal and say nasty things to eachother. Wether boys or girls I don’t think any should be encouraged to roughhouse and boys will be boys as when they are in school someone will usually end up getting hurt

We are doing nothing wrong. It's just that school system is female centred and better suited for girls.

As a parent to two boys who 'look like girls' (both have long hair and one loves purple and pink), I notice a difference in the way that adults treat them when they think they are girls compared to when they realise they are boys. It's telling how often I hear other boys being told to be careful around them until they find out they are boys and then all bets are off!

What I am surprised by is the degree to which some PPs are able to categorise their children's interests so definitively (typicaly 'girly girl' or 'boisterous boy' type comments). Perhaps mine are more unpredictable than most, but I would hesitate to say that either particularly conformed to gender stereotypes or confounded them on any given day (apart from the hair and pink leggings that is!).

I would say my two both have about an even spread of traits that are considered masculine and feminine and I think that most of the kids I know do too. If you saw them at the park, you might think 'typical boys', but if you saw them at home, hosting an elaborate tea-party for a million soft toys, you would think the opposite.

I try to treat them as individuals and not pigeonhole them, but it's impossible not to let my unconscious bias play any role in my parenting. I don't feel as though their father or I conform particularly to gender stereotypes (dress pretty neutrally, relatively mainstream interests that are non gender-specific, work for ourselves, from home in mixed fields etc), so maybe this has had more of an impact on them than we realise.

Their best friends are a mix of girls and boys - my oldest tends to gravitate towards girls, but has one particular male friend that he plays VERY roughly with, but they are both into it and, as parents, we allow it because they are very evenly matched, don't hold a grudge and are careful not to go too far. My son has NEVER tried to play like this with anyone else, male or female, so I'm not sure if it's about 'boys being boys' or about the kind of friendship I have with the other boy's mum that we have allowed them to explore the urge to wrestle when otherwise I wouldn't have allowed it.

The thing I think has made the biggest difference has been that neither go to school. My oldest did for a while, and I was surprised to learn that at 4-5, they were already dividing themselves along gender lines with the boys not letting the girls play football and the girls not letting the boys be in their dance shows. I was really surprised at how many of those gendered tropes had already been picked up and were being regurgitated freely.

I don't think the school reinforced these ideas, but it was incredibly pervasive and it appeared to be ubiquitous and I suspect that it probably had more of an impact than most of the work that the school did on the same subject, which is a shame.

@CatsArePeopleToo

We are doing nothing wrong. It's just that school system is female centred and better suited for girls.

What does this mean?

@ComeOnBabyPopMyBubble

Good behaviour is typically feminine behaviour. The things schools favour appear to be concentration, sitting still, calmness, neat handwriting. From my own experience as a mum of a boy and a girl..my dd is constantly praised for her ability to do the above...my ds was treated like he was a problem to be solved. The whole education system appears to be attempting to change boys behaviour and feminise it rather than accepting it and adapting to what suits them better.

So the boys may hit each other...as this is a violent offence, it's an automatic detention and a phone call home. I don't disagree with this punishment. But a girl saying something really cruel and nasty, is dealt with by a teacher having a quiet chat with them

That is a good point and I also think that often the verbal insults are far more damaging.

[quote formerbabe]@ComeOnBabyPopMyBubble

Good behaviour is typically feminine behaviour. The things schools favour appear to be concentration, sitting still, calmness, neat handwriting. From my own experience as a mum of a boy and a girl..my dd is constantly praised for her ability to do the above...my ds was treated like he was a problem to be solved. The whole education system appears to be attempting to change boys behaviour and feminise it rather than accepting it and adapting to what suits them better.[/quote]
So at what age should boys be expected to be able to concentrate and sit still?
Ks2? Y6? Secondary? College? Uni? Never?

Funnily enough a lot of the jobs that require a lot of concentration,attention to detail ,sitting at a desk for hours etc are viewed as typically male, despite all that being against their "nature".

I expect better from the boys(and girls who struggle just as much with focusing and sitting still) I work with, and funnily enough most of the times(bar any significant issues ,and sometimes even then) they deliver . It's exhausting,time consuming and emotionally draining at times, but they deserve it and they can do it. I believe in them. How much easier would it be to say "meh they can't help it ,just let them get on with it" and whatever happens happens. That's not adapting to them,that's failing them.

Funnily enough a lot of the jobs that require a lot of concentration,attention to detail ,sitting at a desk for hours etc are viewed as typically male, despite all that being against their "nature"

We're not talking about grown men...we're talking about child development. Boys mature at a slower pace than girls and are often not able to conform to what's expected in the early years. They are then vilified and labelled as troublemakers. It's hideous really

@formerbabe my boys are perfectly capable of sitting still, concentrating, writing neatly.
Do you think back in the days when only boys went to school and teachers were male, or in all boys public schools with male teachers, there was no sitting still or writing?
When did we decide that these things were feminine?

Do you think back in the days when only boys went to school and teachers were male, or in all boys public schools with male teachers, there was no sitting still or writing?

I'd imagine the fear of corporal punishment was probably a great incentive.

@formerbabe

Do you think back in the days when only boys went to school and teachers were male, or in all boys public schools with male teachers, there was no sitting still or writing?

I'd imagine the fear of corporal punishment was probably a great incentive.

So men back then were educating boys in a feminised way, with an education system geared towards girls, backed up with corporal punishment?

Nowadays with education being less about sitting still and writing, more female teachers, less punishment - is it now more geared to boys or less

@formerbabe

Funnily enough a lot of the jobs that require a lot of concentration,attention to detail ,sitting at a desk for hours etc are viewed as typically male, despite all that being against their "nature"

We're not talking about grown men...we're talking about child development. Boys mature at a slower pace than girls and are often not able to conform to what's expected in the early years. They are then vilified and labelled as troublemakers. It's hideous really

There is barely any sitting still,concentrating and even less writing in early years. Y1 becomes more formal but it's still a lot of role playing,sitting on the carpet and "doing" rather than sitting at a table and writing pages and pages. Y2 is a lot trickier because of SATS. Which are ridiculous for both girls and boys,but you can blame the government for that.

It's y3 (7/8) when things become a lot more formal. Starting age in other countries where children are also expected to sit still,listen,learn,work,concentrate for an hour at a time. And somehow they manage,not all but as a majority they do. Just like in English schools the majority of children can. The one's that can't are boys and girls.

Atm we actually a class in lower ks2 with more girls (noticeably) struggling to sit in their seats, concentrate ,follow instructions and not faff about. 6 girls vs 3 boys, the others (boys and girls) having various levels of low level disruption at one time or another.

@formerbabe

Do you think back in the days when only boys went to school and teachers were male, or in all boys public schools with male teachers, there was no sitting still or writing?

I'd imagine the fear of corporal punishment was probably a great incentive.

But don't you see how ridiculous that makes the whole "feminised" argument sound?

A system delivered and designed by males,aimed at males with even higher and stricter expectations for behaviour-sitting still,being quiet,don't speak unless spoken to,do your work etc.A system based on blind obedience ,fear and corporal punishment.

But it's the system now that's being feminised?

I find this endlessly fascinating.

We have three daughters, and because we home educate we don't get the saturation of societal pressures in the same way. My three are very physical, rowdy girls, and they've just begun to play-wrestle a lot (which is irritating when one wears glasses). They like creating things with paper and cardboard, but aren't particularly interested in colouring in. We've always made sure they had plenty of blocks and building toys, as well as cars to go with all the stereotypically girl toys they get from others.

I wonder if they'd be different if they had gone to nursery and then to school.

Boys and girls are different at the end of the day, even if you happen to have a 'masculine' little girl or 'feminine' little boy.
It'd be blind to ignore the intrinsic cognitive e.g spatial visualisation and physical differences, different maturity or developmental needs, probably even the way they process emotions. It gets increasingly pronounced as they grow, some things are blinking obvious e.g. if you watch any competitive sports, and some things may be less so and subject to some stereotypes or conjecture e.g. organisational ability, aggressive tendencies etc