School forcing 8am start for my SEN girl?

[emmapemma91]

So I’m having quite a lot of bother with my little girls school. She’s not settling in very well and becoming very distressed when going into school and can become aggressive.
She’s waiting on assessment for possible Autism. She’s 6 and in year 2.

She’s on a reduced timetable at the minute but the school are forcibly telling me they want her in at 8am to give her time to settle before her class come in at 8.45. I’ve told them each time my sons school taxi comes sometime between 8.15 - 8.25 and I can’t get her there, chase her around while she tries to run away, then carry her into school then be back in time for my sons taxi. Yet every day they say the same thing, she hasn’t settled and needs to be in 8am. If I miss his taxi I can’t get him to school as I don’t drive and it’s quite far away.

Is there any solution? I’m sick of fighting with the school to support my daughter.

@Staffy1 it’s also not as simple as ‘get a EHCP and move her.’ I’ve applied for a EHCP myself, but have no paperwork to back it up as the school haven’t provided any. They anticipate it to be declined and won’t support it as ‘it’s trying to run before you can walk’. Then the local authority need APDR for 2 terms which is hard when she’s not even there full days and gets sent home early at least once a week.

As I say I’m planning to appeal if it does get declined but it’s not easy, I feel like I’m fighting everyone to get my child help.

@Thighdentitycrisis I am ready and leave as soon as my sons taxi arrives. It’s not early enough according to them.

@NailsNeedDoing

There are a dozen different ways to support children into school that don’t involve the child being there 45 mins early

Really? I’d be very interested to hear you suggestions, could you list them please?

If a child is that distressed and aggressive coming into school of a morning that she needs extra time to settle in along with 1-1 attention, how can that possibly happen at the same time as letting her have the normal registration time that she deserves? It’s not fair to send a child directly from being upset into a lesson.

But if school get there right processes in for the morning then she won’t be upset and distressed.

Ds used to be upset and distressed going into school, so we changed how he went into school - for him going into the office and being met by a TA who took him somewhere quiet until he was ready to go to class. At first it took up to an hour before he was settled and able to go to class, but when he realised pressure was off, that he wasn’t having to join the early morning hustle and bustle and he could transition calmly he got to a position where now he generally doesn’t need to go to his quiet place first thing he can go with his TA straight to class.

There are ways to support the child without creating a bigger issue for the wider family.

Hmm that way you are offering to accommodate them ? Can they justify why she needs 45 minutes and why they aren’t willing to work with you on this?

Let me tell you a little story...

.... once upon a time there was a boy with a language disorder called Dave. Dave couldn't learn like the other children as he didnt understand language. Dave needed speech therapy but Dave's HT ( Mr Ego)had been told that there was no money for speech therapy and no other child in all the land had speech therapy.

Dave's mummy was perplexed. She knew that there was mythical creatures, like unicorns, but she believed that speech therapist did exist in the land, if they existed surely they also worked, giving therapy she mused.

Mr Ego wasnt interested, he held a firm belief that speech therapist was mytical creatures. He had zero desire to check his facts. They did not exist! That how it was, it had always been. He felt safe and assured that he was right, based on nothing.

Dave's mummy like to check her facts and after searching all the land, got a speech therapist for little Dave. But Mr Ego had been sorely injured by the fact that such a silly stupid little mummy had proved him wrong! The SLT was only £65 every six weeks, but it was the principle. Dave's little mummy had emasculated him.

So he declared the the speech therapist be banished from his jumped up school land. And so it was.

So Dave's mummy asked a nice judge at the royal Courts of justice in London for help.

The nice judge decreed that because Mr Ego was prepaired to go to such lengths to protect his untrue beliefs, that Dave should go to a £17k a year private school plus taxi fair.

Mr Ego was upset that Dave was being educated and wouldnt just drop dead with his mother. But he slept soundly knowing it had cost £17k of government funding to stop the 6 weekly cost of £65.

The end

True story that

I am a teacher and a parent of a child with SEN. They need to work with you. They should be understanding that you cannot get there for 8am. Put it in writing why you can't do this. Ask them how they can meet her needs at 8.45. They clearly need to have someone meet her, bring her into a safe, quiet space to do some kind of settling transition activity before bringing her into class, perhaps when everyone else has settled.

Hi @emmapemma91. This sounds tough. You might want to join our thread on the SN boards here - we all have kids in early primary (between Reception and Year 2) - might be another place to get some good ideas about the EHCP as well as the issue with separation anxiety/transition anxiety at drop off. I wonder whether a later start and finish could work for you and for them (could still be a bit calmer for all concerned, but work better with your DS's timetable if your DH can be home in time to meet DS's taxi?)

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/special_needs/3953023-Primary-school-auties-summer-and-beyond-thread-5

@emmapemma91 isn't Ed Psych already involved from old school?

Do you really think it’s that simple for every school to be able to release a TA for up to an hour every morning? TAs at my school don’t even start work until 9.00 unless they are already allocated to a child with an ehcp, the children are sat down and ready to be registered at 8.50 by only one adult in Y2.

Clearly there should be funding for more when children need the support, but there isn’t.

@NailsNeedDoing

Do you really think it’s that simple for every school to be able to release a TA for up to an hour every morning? TAs at my school don’t even start work until 9.00 unless they are already allocated to a child with an ehcp, the children are sat down and ready to be registered at 8.50 by only one adult in Y2.

Clearly there should be funding for more when children need the support, but there isn’t.

Well this school is obviously able to fund someone from 8am every morning so them not being in obviously isn’t an issue.

The sad things is some schools go out of their way to be accommodating (thankfully DS goes to one of them) but so many children are denied an education because they come up against so called professionals like are being posted by so many on here whereby frankly children with additional needs are nothing more than an inconvenience.

If a school can’t free up a staff member for 10 minutes to help a child transition then something is wrong with how they are operating.

Thats not true. I got ds ehcp during home educating. I have had more help and support since home educating than i have ever done while he was in education. They say that you get no help but honestly thats not true.

The local authority only has a duty to help with home education if it is supplying home tuition, sometimes known as EOTAS (education otherwise than at school). If parents are home educating by choice, the LA still has to issue an EHCP if that is necessary, but all the responsibilities to provide education and the SEN support in the EHCP falls on the parent. Some LAs may be prepared to help voluntarily, but OP is right that they would have no duty to do so.

@NailsNeedDoing

I’m sorry if I sound obtuse, I really don’t mean to be and I’m not a resentful parent, I have a child with SEN too. But I’m coming at this from the perspective of a TA who would love to be able to do more to support children with SENs at my school, we simply don’t have the time or resources to do any more. It’s almost as frustrating as being in the parents position.

I respect that. I know it must be hard. It really needs to pushed back to the LA.

The law is there for this reason but Sencos, HT and school dont always know the laws.

Sencos have zero excuses imo.

My sons old HT said he had never known any parent do a appeal forget winning one.

I enjoyed his re education emensly

@Wolfiefan

If you can’t be in two places at once then you need to look for solutions to your problem. Not expect the school to solve it for you.

Shut up, this is the 3rd bitchy post I have read from you, I hope you are not a teacher with the attitude you have towards a parent clearly struggling

@Thighdentitycrisis
I suspect that having to leave as soon as the taxi leaves and that the taxi seems to be very loosely scheduled is (at least) half of the problem that makes her so unsettled in the mornings. The reality is that having to wait an indeterminant time each morning whilst ready to leave for school would be highly unsettling for the vast majority of children with autism especially if they already have anxieties around school attendance.

As much as one child may need that 15 minutes a day 1-1, it’s likely that other children have a need for TA at that time of day too. Dedicating that time to one child every day, no matter how much they need or deserve it, still takes it away from the other 29 Y2 children that need to be supported first thing in the morning.

The problem with that is that the nature of a TA's work is that at varying times of the day they may be supporting only one or two children, whether it's with reading or writing, helping them get changed for PE, doing speech therapy exercises with them or whatever. If you are going to say that none of those children can have support because it takes away from the other 28 or 29 children, there is relatively little point in having a TA at all.

The other point is that if giving OP's child 15 minutes 1:1 a day is really problematic then the school should be supporting OP with her request for an EHC Plan, since if they believe this to be the case they would be acknowledging that her needs can't be met within the resources normally available to mainstream schools, which is the criterion for issuing an EHCP.

Under any circumstances, it is simply not lawful to fail to provide support within school hours to a child with SEN who needs it because it might take away support from other children.

The thing is I was told theres no funding, no money, no therapist etc etc. There is!

They just need to fund them. But like in my example because they refused to budge it had to be provided out of mainstream. My son is too academic for state SEN schooling which is rammed full anyway so 17k of funding went into the private SEN school. £17k per year!

How can that be right? That's about ten times what mainstream fought over to block. If his HT had just accepted that yes he needed the ehcp to continue, that 17k of funding would still in state schools. But because everyone shouts there is no money to find a TA or a SLT, free thinkers can say 'do you know what? I'm going to employ these therapusts'and then they just sit back and it all rolls in.

How is that?

The HT still probably thinks his way is the only way whilst moaning he has no SEN budget. No shit sherlock! It's been blown 10 fold on the kids that was failed in infants. Great business plan right there.

It's wrong and its corrupt but I cant change that. Only schools can change this by actually having open minds are daring to try a different way.

Spend young, save costs later

How can school staff be in many different locations at once?

You do know that school staff are real people who are accommodating you and your child?
You may need extra help / child minder etc....?

@Somethingkindaoooo, they don't need to be in many different locations at once. One TA needs to be available to support OP's child, and if the school can't provide that they should be supporting the EHCP application. It definitely isn't for OP to go to all the expense of sourcing and paying for a child minder so that the school can avoid its statutory responsibilities.

We have a five year old autistic son and are in the same situation, thankfully our school are very accommodating.

It's all very well them offering to have her from 8am but if that doesn't work for you then they need to drop it and come up with new suggestions. What's your relationship like with the SENCO? Do they have any ideas?

My son has improved with going in 10 minutes late to avoid the rush, and having one of the activities that he enjoys most as his first activity before he joins in with the rest of the class.

If they can't manage at present then they need to apply for an EHCP.

Someone upthread has mentioned the Not Fine in School Facebook group, and I agree, it's full of really helpful people in similar situations.

I totally sympathise OP and assuming your son’s transport is organised by LA it’s not actually that easy to just swap the place your son is picked up from even if just down the road. It’s all organised to quite a tight schedule especially if other children are picked up along the way.

Could your daughter go in a bit later say 9.15 after the other kids have gone in, maybe have some decompressing time before joining the class?

Or go in the same time as everyone else but go in the main/office entrance and be met by a member of staff there and do some winding down before joining the class? That’s what my son did when he was still in mainstream and on a reduced timetable. He couldn’t cope with the playground being so full of people.

You are absolutely right to insist that the school’s plan is unworkable and there needs to be another way round this. Both of your children are entitled to an education you can’t and shouldn’t be expected to choose one set of needs over another.

Exactly Lego.

thankfully DS schools shows how it should be, they funded support needed (including paying for a private Ed psych) and worked to make him part of the school. Now he is looking like being able to go to mainstream secondary (still with full 1-1) whereas without the work that has been done by school he would have ended up needing specialist secondary and the only one which would be able to meet all his needs would be a very expensive independent.

Parents shouldn’t have to fight to get schools (or local authority) to provide basic things to support them

@NailsNeedDoing

There are a dozen different ways to support children into school that don’t involve the child being there 45 mins early

Really? I’d be very interested to hear you suggestions, could you list them please?

If a child is that distressed and aggressive coming into school of a morning that she needs extra time to settle in along with 1-1 attention, how can that possibly happen at the same time as letting her have the normal registration time that she deserves? It’s not fair to send a child directly from being upset into a lesson.

My suggestion would be that the school supports OP's request for an EHC needs assessment so that professional advice can be obtained.

I don't think anyone is suggesting dragging an upset child into a lesson. The idea would be to use tried and tested strategies to help the child calm down before going into class. An educational psychologist can advise the school on that.

A child who has the right support in school is going to find it easier to go in anyway: much of the problem tends to lie in problems such as communication difficulties which meant that the child doesn't really understand what is going on and can't express her wishes and frustrations, or sensory difficulties which means she finds noise, crowds, bright lights etc really distressing. Or because she is conscious that she is behind her classmates academically and possibly even because she gets bullied. Having the right support can address all those difficulties and make school much easier to cope with.

I'm sorry but I don't understand how the school can say you need to bring her in early to settle and leave early as they can't cope but won't support a EHCP.
Maybe it is worth saying - so far you have suggested these adjustments, but are also saying she doesn't need a EHCP. End there and stay quiet while they try and justify.

So Dave's mummy asked a nice judge at the royal Courts of justice in London for help.

The nice judge decreed that because Mr Ego was prepaired to go to such lengths to protect his untrue beliefs, that Dave should go to a £17k a year private school plus taxi fair.

Mr Ego was upset that Dave was being educated and wouldnt just drop dead with his mother. But he slept soundly knowing it had cost £17k of government funding to stop the 6 weekly cost of £65.

Go Dave's Mum! @Legoandloldolls, presumably Mr Ego's little ego-trip also cost the lucky local authority a few thousand in legal fees as well? Silly of them not to tell Mr Ego to stop being stupid, really.

@NailsNeedDoing

Do you really think it’s that simple for every school to be able to release a TA for up to an hour every morning? TAs at my school don’t even start work until 9.00 unless they are already allocated to a child with an ehcp, the children are sat down and ready to be registered at 8.50 by only one adult in Y2.

Clearly there should be funding for more when children need the support, but there isn’t.

Sigh. That's why the school should have applied for an EHCP some time ago. Contrary to what some schools and local authorities would have parents believe, LAs do have to fund EHC Plans over and above the delegated SEN funding that schools get separately.

Out of interest, @NailsNeedDoing, as a TA how happy would you be if your school told you you had to come in at 8 a.m. every day to support a child because they didn't want to get an EHCP for her?

You are already compromising with a reduced timetable. You can’t do this early start, and 8am is a bit ridiculous to be honest, I would have thought trying to get her up and out at that time is very pressurised.

It’s good they are thinking of how to help, but it should be a negotiation. Not a dictation on either side. Ask to go in to see them and see if you can problem solve together. Can she come in late?