School forcing 8am start for my SEN girl?

[emmapemma91]

So I’m having quite a lot of bother with my little girls school. She’s not settling in very well and becoming very distressed when going into school and can become aggressive.
She’s waiting on assessment for possible Autism. She’s 6 and in year 2.

She’s on a reduced timetable at the minute but the school are forcibly telling me they want her in at 8am to give her time to settle before her class come in at 8.45. I’ve told them each time my sons school taxi comes sometime between 8.15 - 8.25 and I can’t get her there, chase her around while she tries to run away, then carry her into school then be back in time for my sons taxi. Yet every day they say the same thing, she hasn’t settled and needs to be in 8am. If I miss his taxi I can’t get him to school as I don’t drive and it’s quite far away.

Is there any solution? I’m sick of fighting with the school to support my daughter.

@OhCaptain

It doesn’t matter if the OP wants mainstream or specialist, the problem is that this particular school aren’t meeting her needs ( a mainstream state school with a say a ASD unit attached could be better suited for example) and It’s fine that not all schools are suited To every child, but in the case of SEN the school needs to be open and upfront about not being able to meet her needs, then the School, LA, parent, EP and whomever else can discuss what would be better suited, be it a different mainstream or a private specialist.

with my son and nephew it was the environment as well as the other things, they couldn’t cope in an average sized class so £6k or £60k extra funding given to their mainstream school wouldn’t have made a difference as the large class sizes that they had to be part of was a huge factor in them not making progress.

I’m not saying this is exact the OPs case but just giving an example

schools don't get given 6k per a SEND pupil that is ring fenced to be spent on them
Oh yes, but saying "we can't pay for the TA in your EHCP because we spent it on a new roof so you aren't getting it" would be frowned upon.

The formula isn't even based on SEND numbers but other factors like deprivation and EAL.

oh absolutely -you can't blame an individual child for a deficit budget (although i have had a head try this with me and my child) I have zero sympathy for schools that talk about budgets to families as its no more my problem as a parent of a child with SEN than it is a problem for a child without SEN. No-one ever says to those children, you can come in half day as we have a group of children who need more support and there isn't enough money.
But the truth is schools are on their knees financially and the system for funding SEND is broken.

I think it can't be emphasised enough that the 6,000 is 'notional'

It is not based on the actual number of SEN pupils. Two schools could have the same funding and one school have NO pupils to spend it on and another have to share it between 10.

Some schools try to game this by putting off SEN pupils from applying. Our school has a good reputation for inclusion and attracts a lot of SEN pupils but this means the money gets shared between more. We are actively punished for caring about SEND pupils vs the 'posher' school in the nearby village who like to gently suggest they'd be better at ours and yet keep all their budget.

School funding is a crazy thing

The only way to get real dedicated funding for a child is an EHCP.

@TheId

I think it can't be emphasised enough that the 6,000 is 'notional'

It is not based on the actual number of SEN pupils. Two schools could have the same funding and one school have NO pupils to spend it on and another have to share it between 10.

Some schools try to game this by putting off SEN pupils from applying. Our school has a good reputation for inclusion and attracts a lot of SEN pupils but this means the money gets shared between more. We are actively punished for caring about SEND pupils vs the 'posher' school in the nearby village who like to gently suggest they'd be better at ours and yet keep all their budget.

School funding is a crazy thing

The only way to get real dedicated funding for a child is an EHCP.

Absolutely true-I nodded my way through this.

We are known for being great with children with additional needs but it really pisses me off when the other local heads tell parents to send their children to our school as persuade them their needs will be MUCH better met, as we have next to nothing.

One of these aforementioned schools has just built a lovely new building; we can’t even afford a full time SENCo.

Once we had so many with EHCPs that I asked the LA if there was some threshold over which we'd get any extra money

Answer Yeh- one more than we had!

And even then we'd have had to apply in triplicate providing multiple pieces of evidence to possibly be approved for a time limited period and receive the money (not backdated) the next financial year.

A lot of schools to want to help pupils with SEN but have one hand tied behind their backs in terms of funding and access to specialist support

Taking a child in a car may not be the solution anyway. It may trigger a meltdown in the car which can be very dangerous and certainly not to be undertaken by a newly qualified driver.

My DD has an EHCP. The support she needed whilst we waited for it to go through (and school are still arguing with the LA for funding to be correct!) Meant a class of 30 lost their TA. She will be funded for her own TA but her provision map pre ehcp worked out at 18k which school had to find. The irony of it all is my DD is too complex for specialist school!

Can you son be trusted to get in the taxi solo ? How old is he

@Thisisworsethananticpated

Can you son be trusted to get in the taxi solo ? How old is he

OP has said that he is 10 with SEN severe enough to require a special school. So he can't be left on his own to wait for the taxi and get in it.

@TheId

Once we had so many with EHCPs that I asked the LA if there was some threshold over which we'd get any extra money

Answer Yeh- one more than we had!

And even then we'd have had to apply in triplicate providing multiple pieces of evidence to possibly be approved for a time limited period and receive the money (not backdated) the next financial year.

A lot of schools to want to help pupils with SEN but have one hand tied behind their backs in terms of funding and access to specialist support

School funding for SEN really doesn't work this way and the SENCO shouldn't accept it. The LA has an absolute duty to secure the special educational provision in each EHCP and can't impose policies whereby they won't do it unless there is a minimum number of EHCPs in the school. If, say, once child's provision costs £12,000 a year the school will be expected to kick in the first £6K but the LA must provide the rest, even if this is the only child with an EHCP in the entire school. If they're obstinate about it, it could be worth pointing the parents to someone like SOS SEN who will help them with a formal threat of judicial review to enforce local authority duties.

Op I would email the head with an outline of the events as you see them. Be extremely detailed itemising every conversation as best you can. This will then be "evidence" should you need to do anything more. You can then explain in writing why you can't meet their 8am demand.

Then I would have a think about what you would like from the school and tell them. One suggestion I have would be that they give her small targets for each morning e.g. Monday to tell her TA two things she did at the weekend, Tuesday to sit at the desk and write the date and title etc. It sounds like their expectations are that she goes from her current situation to fully engaging in the lesson but this just won't happen.

Another suggestion would be for the TA to take her to another room or area for half an hour at the start of the day and let her do something that relaxes her such as play with her favourite toy or listen to.relaxation music and do some mindfulness stuff, whatever works for her.

Hi OP, I have a child who gets a taxi to school and completely understand your problem.

I find my youngest son's school to be peculiarly obstinate when it comes to understanding that I have to wait for my son to be picked up before dropped my youngest off.

When I used to work the taxi agreed to drop ds at the childminders a few nights a week but I had to make a bloody fuss to the County Council and it was exhausting.

Your dd can still go in a bit early and that will have to be it for now, you can't work miracles!

If the school continues to pressurise you I would consider moving your dd.

Thank you for your help. I think my worst fear is that because when she’s hiding under the desk she’s causing no problems, not being aggressive and not disruptive so the school just let it happen. Today the TA said she went out at break time and had a run around, but she has nobody to play with (I don’t blame the other children for being wary of her after seeing some of her behaviours) but it breaks my heart

Being there early does sound a bit naff. I get their idea but maybe it would be best the other way? Starting a bit later when all the other children have settled into their day? I only say this because I have a DS with autism and he really struggled with the hustle and bustle of the school run, kids in the playground and going in etc.

8.30 would seem more realistic. 45 minutes seems a long time.

I really don’t want to move her as this is a new move. There is a closer school with a nurture department but it’s absolutely bursting. They also need a EHCP for the ARMS part. I’m thinking of taking w online course in SEND law, does anyone have any specific legislation I can read up on apart from The code of practice?

I think IPSEA run online SEND law courses. Their hotline has helped me numerous times.

IPSEA are an amazing charity

www.ipsea.org.uk/pages/faqs/category/parent-and-carer-online-training

Children and Families Act 2014 Part 3 on SEN:

www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2014/6/contents/enacted

Matrix SEN Noddy Guide March 2020

www.matrixlaw.co.uk/practice-areas/education-law/noddy-guide-2020/

SOS!Sen information sheets:

sossen.org.uk/information_sheets.php

SOS SEN also do some really helpful booklets and have been doing some good webinars which are still available online.

Can I ask a question, not specifically aimed at OP but just regarding the general theme of the thread? I don’t mean to come across as rude, but trying to understand things a little bit more?

I don’t have any sen children, but one of my 3 had problems settling into school for the first 2-3 years, resulting in many meetings with the teacher and head. It resulted in stubborn behaviour, dc would only engage on their terms, only doing what they wanted to do. School put a few incentives in place, but nothing really helped. Dc was very difficult to manage, at home and school. No violence though, Just complete stubbornness and behaviour that I would describe as different to others. Things improved massively each year from year 3. Dc is now a teenager, but still definitely a “character and one off” and massively stubborn, but kind and sociable. No problems academically or behaviourally since ks1.

My question is, how do you know from such an early age that children have possible sen, and not just stubborn/immature etc?

And also, there seems to be so many more children with sen now in my youngest dc class (about 5-6) compared to years ago when eldest dcs were in primary. Why is this? Is it because of increased knowledge/diagnosis?

My question is, how do you know from such an early age that children have possible sen, and not just stubborn/immature etc?

The first thing here is that SEN and SN are not the same thing.

SEN is Special Education Needs, this means that a child has a learning need and requires support with that need in order to reach expected learning targets.

SN generally refers to disabilities.

There is often overlap between the two but a child can have SEN and no SN, just as a child can have SN and no SEN.

My experiences relate to my own DC and their diagnosis' but its far more than stubbornness and immaturity. The assessment process looks at the child's developmental history, it includes input from school and any other professionals involved with the family, observations at home and school, and cognitive testing. Sites such as The Autistic Society will be able to give you more detailed information on how testing is done.

There are lots of theories on why there are seems to be more children with SEN - one being an increase in knowledge and diagnosis, one being some SEN/SN are correlated to having older parents and there are more older parents now, another theory is related to pre-term births / certain events in pregnancy and birth and more children are surviving from pre-term births or these types of events due to better medical care. There is also a more social model in that schools have bigger classes, different learning methods and much more high stakes testing than the past so are less suited to some children with SEN; that children with SN were hidden away in the past at special schools, or indeed it was only in the 80s that they even had a right to education at all.

My DS has ADHD and there is diagnosed ADHD in his birth family. But many families whose children are placed for adoption will have undiagnosed ADHD and resulting chaotic lifestyle; it just wasn't diagnosed as much 20-30 years ago.