School forcing 8am start for my SEN girl?

[emmapemma91]

So I’m having quite a lot of bother with my little girls school. She’s not settling in very well and becoming very distressed when going into school and can become aggressive.
She’s waiting on assessment for possible Autism. She’s 6 and in year 2.

She’s on a reduced timetable at the minute but the school are forcibly telling me they want her in at 8am to give her time to settle before her class come in at 8.45. I’ve told them each time my sons school taxi comes sometime between 8.15 - 8.25 and I can’t get her there, chase her around while she tries to run away, then carry her into school then be back in time for my sons taxi. Yet every day they say the same thing, she hasn’t settled and needs to be in 8am. If I miss his taxi I can’t get him to school as I don’t drive and it’s quite far away.

Is there any solution? I’m sick of fighting with the school to support my daughter.

[quote hoxtonbabe]@Legoandloldolls I think it’s pointless replying to most of the silly replies on here as some are so ridiculous I have to laugh! it’s no wonder SEN children and parents have such a rough time getting the support they need. I can’t tell you how many teachers and TAs over the years thought like some of the people responding to this which is worryingly sad. I can’t get my head around some of these replies. The schools and LA have to make it work around the child end of, nothing to do with what the parents should be doing to make it easier for the school or accommodating them. If the school can’t meet her needs or are struggling with her then they have to tell the Local Authority so she can get the support, but never ever should it be or has it been that the child and parent has to work around the school, especially like in this case it’s out of school hours! Blooming cheek.

@emmapemma91

Things may have changed Since my sons day but usually the reports ( rarely the LA ones, but the one you get or your solicitor instructs if it get to that point) will state xxx needs to be in xxx environment, needs xxx, and they will either state that the current school doesn’t have the provision or capacity to do xxx or if it doesn’t state the current school doesn’t have what is recommended then you need to highlight that in the report from say the EP states DS needs to be in say a class of 12 or less ( for example) and the current school only have classes of 30. It’s all about gathering evidence for what needs to be in her plan.[/quote]
100% to all of this!

Much better articulated than I could do with my baby brain right now😂🤦🏻‍♀️

Little swede with your dd being only 6, hospital/home tuition is not going to be a suitable long term plan. Your dd needs an ed psych, an assessment, mitigation of the factors making school unbearable, and/or an ehcp naming an appropriate setting.

@emmapemma91

Thank you I will do that! She hasn’t got a diagnosis yet we’re still waiting for an appointment for assessment, although the paediatrician strongly thinks she has. I’ve sent the paediatricians report in with the EHCP. The school have made contact with CYPS (same as CAMHS in our area) to try speed up the process a bit, as have I, twice. They keep going on about getting a diagnosis and although that would be useful my priority right now is to help her at school, I don’t think a diagnosis should make a difference. Either way she’s struggling and should be entitled to the same support.

Also, don't let the school try & tell you that she needs a diagnosis for an echp or to apply for one, she 100% does not!

@hoxtonbabe

The really scary thing is that so many HT and sencos have zero ideas about the code of practice and the law. How can you be a senco and not read the code of practice?

Looking back at one of my appeals I could have laughed when the judge was ripping in to EP with a pHD who tough at uni. Even he didnt know the law of his trade. Theres no excuse. She ripped him apart. When I'm angry, like reading this thread, i go there to my happy place.

Appreciate this may not be possible, but could you get a carer to come in for your son in the mornings? Then you could take your daughter and the carer could get your son into the taxi at the right time. At least until you are able to get the school to put something more concrete in place for your daughter.

@Legoandloldolls

I totally understand you. I tend to keep away from all things SEN these days as it sets me off in a crap mood for the day as I hate the injustice of it all and how “the System” and the majority of those involved will bend over backwards to screw a child’s education over.

[quote hoxtonbabe]@Legoandloldolls

I totally understand you. I tend to keep away from all things SEN these days as it sets me off in a crap mood for the day as I hate the injustice of it all and how “the System” and the majority of those involved will bend over backwards to screw a child’s education over.[/quote]
Me too. I was very active on the SEN boards until the last appeal. I'm on county wide ehcp group where it's just use SEN parents. We all share experience and moan about the injustice.

I'm.also a governor at a SEN school, but seeing how SEN was impacted during the pandemic I couldn't stomach it so paused for a term at the end of summer.

It's like holding back the tide. You can only fight a win individually. My LA is shocking.

Some of the unrealistic responses on here 🤣
As a Sen mum I totally know where you are coming from it’s not as simple as pay extra for transport, what would happen to the son when he got to school really early ?
Or get carers in the morning for son. Money from where ?

@CulturallyAppropriatedName

Little swede with your dd being only 6, hospital/home tuition is not going to be a suitable long term plan. Your dd needs an ed psych, an assessment, mitigation of the factors making school unbearable, and/or an ehcp naming an appropriate setting.

Sorry, didn't mean for it to be along term thing at all. I probably wasn't very clear. What I meant was that I am not forcing her in and whilst she is out we should get help to get moving with the things you mention. It should also count as evidence that school can't meet needs. Our EHCP application was turned down a year ago as DD's needs were being met by the nursery she attended at the time. But I will be reapplying and have a meeting with Senco and the Communication and Autism team lined up next week. I have a thick file of evidence and an school related anxiety log to go with. I wish we weren't going through this.

I haven't been able to finish reading the thread yet, as I can't keep up, but I'd echo what previous posters have said about spending a (relatively) small amount of money in order to put support in place early, to avoid spending £££ later.

At my child's mainstream infants school it was apparently beyond their resources to provide a diagnosed autistic child with a daily visual timetable and advance warning of any changes to schedule. I accept there will always be unexpected changes. They were also unable to provide consistent support to the daily transition into school.

This all contributed to my childs "school refusal" due to extremely high levels of anxiety, despite appearing "fine" in school to staff. My child wasnt fine, given how tough it was to get them to go at all, and the meltdowns at home...

Anyway, my child ended up being out of school for almost 18 months, and is now at an independent special school which costs at least £34k each year.

I accept that money is tight in schools, but instead of headteachers, sencos etc basically gaslighting parents and minimising the issues young children have, they need to be on the same page as parents and support requests for reasonable adjustments (esp as many adjustments dont actually cost anything, or very little) and requests for EHCPs etc.

Sorry to hear you are having difficulties OP. It is so often the case that SEN parents feel that they need to fight which I understand but I would urge you to try to work with the school, it is much more positive for your DD. It is a shame when the school and teachers are under constant attack. They are nearly always underfunded, understaffed and lack the specialist resources and support. The paperwork that comes for the SENCO role is enormous. If there a a small number of children on a school it is manageable but often they are overloaded. They are often trying to manage and so it is worth considering things from their perspective. It sounds like you need a meeting to talk things through. You can still challenge and assert your childs rights but try to work together. Confrontation will only cause more stress for you and not help your dd.

I accept that money is tight in schools, but instead of headteachers, sencos etc basically gaslighting parents and minimising the issues young children have, they need to be on the same page as parents and support requests for reasonable adjustments (esp as many adjustments dont actually cost anything, or very little) and requests for EHCPs etc.

This 100%, I don’t think people realise just how difficult schools can make it. My friends son school has been very good as they suspect he is autistic and are supporting my friend to get a diagnosis etc, my DS school were “good” but only because they wanted him out so were giving hell to my LA to put him in a school that could meet his needs but the headmistress made it very clear that she thought my sons issues were because of me and I always remember the EP stepping in at a meeting and telling the headmistress to basically shut it ( in a professional way of course, lol) but schools like that are far and few, for the most part a school will make out like you are the crazy one and use the corker of “your child isn’t as bad as others” to justify not doing anything

@hoxtonbabe my daughters head teacher said she’s ‘seen nothing like it in over 30years of teaching’ and also said they can’t meet her long term needs Because they haven’t got the staff or resources. That was 2 days after she started. Yet next day said she didn’t want to involve outside agencies or go for a EHCP as it’s too early

[quote emmapemma91]@hoxtonbabe my daughters head teacher said she’s ‘seen nothing like it in over 30years of teaching’ and also said they can’t meet her long term needs Because they haven’t got the staff or resources. That was 2 days after she started. Yet next day said she didn’t want to involve outside agencies or go for a EHCP as it’s too early [/quote]
Email.it back to her stating it exactly as she said it to you.

Even more evidence. Lovely see how easy it is to gather evidence? Unless she says you misunderstood me or misquoted me it's all good for any possible appeals.

She mentioned a ehcp on day 2? Dear God that's a worry then on day 4 she is being illegally excluded

Find out if your local council has an inclusion officer, as we had to get ours evolved to get anywhere before our dd was given a place at a better school for her.
We were told that a part time timetable should only be short term I.e. Weeks, with a clear plan to increase

The head of DS3s school offered to fund DS4 in wraparound care if I moved DS3 to another school. What's even worse is the Head said this in front of LA SEND staff (low management level) who agreed afterwards that the Head shouldn't have said it, but did nothing about it.

@emmapemma91 is that school the only option for her? It sounds horrendous.

And with you doing the early start now and again I feel like you’re shooting yourself in the foot with them a bit!

I’m not in the U.K. but what happens if the school simply don’t have the £6k required for the echp? Surely there’s some way to fund it?

Ultimately I think it’s awfully obvious that they don’t want her. So I would honestly concentrate my efforts on getting her in somewhere else.

Because even if you find a magic start time solution, or win her right to a full time table, I just wouldn’t trust them to be kind to her.

@emmapemma91

This is why as Lego has said, it is important to keep things on email as the headmistress will probably deny it, they are already being difficult and will make you jump through hoops despite it being clear as day that they can’t meet her needs.

It is solely for this reason I wouldn’t want more children even if I could as I don’t think I could cope again with the battle of schools, LA and the LA “experts” that always seem to downplay the problem and do the minimum batch of tests and only when your independent expert comes along and does the other batch, then you see how bad things are

@OhCaptain it’s fine if the school don’t want her, what isn’t fine and what makes my blood boil is when the school does nothing to assist in getting said child out of their school and into a school that would be better suited. Once a school says it can’t meet the child’s needs that’s half the battle won.

[quote OhCaptain]@emmapemma91 is that school the only option for her? It sounds horrendous.

And with you doing the early start now and again I feel like you’re shooting yourself in the foot with them a bit!

I’m not in the U.K. but what happens if the school simply don’t have the £6k required for the echp? Surely there’s some way to fund it?

Ultimately I think it’s awfully obvious that they don’t want her. So I would honestly concentrate my efforts on getting her in somewhere else.

Because even if you find a magic start time solution, or win her right to a full time table, I just wouldn’t trust them to be kind to her.[/quote]
Schools are given delegated SEN funding for this purpose based on a complicated formula. It probably isn't enough, but at least theoretically they should never be in a position where they can't fund their contribution to SEN support.

I’m not in the U.K. but what happens if the school simply don’t have the £6k required for the echp? Surely there’s some way to fund it?
They are allocated this much per child on the SEN register (someone correct me?) so if they've spent it on library books I imagine that would be... Er how do I say this... Illegal?
Schools have a massive budget (and a lot of pupils, so not that much per pupil) so they can't say "oh sorry we have 2 1/2 p to do us till Christmas, no TA for you" any more than they can say "sorry Miss Smith you don't get your salary this month".

Ah, ok. So it’s not that the school have to find £6k? It’s that they’ve likely spent it elsewhere?

OhCaptain it’s fine if the school don’t want her, what isn’t fine and what makes my blood boil is when the school does nothing to assist in getting said child out of their school and into a school that would be better suited. Once a school says it can’t meet the child’s needs that’s half the battle won.

Sorry, I thought that the OP wanted her little one in mainstream school.

They are allocated this much per child on the SEN register (someone correct me?)

Schools are theoretically allocated up to £6k for each child on the SEN register, but this doesn’t relate to their actual SEN register, so if they put an extra 3 children on, they don’t get another £18k. It’s based on a wibbly wobbly secret formula that is performed at a county level. It is also not ring fenced, so is just part of the school budget.

Schools may get what looks like a massive budget, but they also have massive outgoings-mainly teacher staffing. We are currently in a deficit budget so literally don’t have the money for a TA just lying around. We have also been banned from using supply teachers this year, that’s how bad things are financially in my school. Other schools may have more money.

You can still challenge and assert your childs rights but try to work together. Confrontation will only cause more stress for you and not help your dd.

That intention needs to work both ways though, the school aren’t working with mum or child in any sense of the word abd honestly if my child was so distressed they were sitting under a desk for three hours with no engagement, much less education, I’d get pretty confrontational pretty damn quick.

ive been so tempted just to take her home, but she deserves a education (I’d be shit) and I feel that is what the LA and school want me to do so they don’t have to deal with her

Hard though it is, don’t take her out of school. With the LA, it will be a case of out of sight, out of mind - she could be out of school for years, and they won’t care, because it’s saving them money!

Obviously DD may get to the stage of school refusing - in which case, film it. You can use that as evidence, if it comes to a tribunal.

drspouse - sadly that's not how school funding works.

schools don't get given 6k per a SEND pupil that is ring fenced to be spent on them. They get the element 1 funding which is per pupil for all pupils. Then element 2 funding, which is based on a formula which varies from LA to LA and is still part of the delegated budget so schools can chose how this is best spent. The formula isn't even based on SEND numbers but other factors like deprivation and EAL. There is an expectation that 6k of it will be spent supporting pupils needs but its not a legal requirement for having a needs assessment.