To think that the decision to have children is a risk...

[GreenWoodpecker123456]

...because you can never be sure whether you'll enjoy being a parent, what kind of child you'll have etc.

I ws having this conversation with someone and they said it's no more of a risk than anything else in life like getting married or going into a particular career.

I don't agree, because having kids is the one thing in life that you truly can't reverse!

AIBU?

@Hardbackwriter that is very interesting! I have always felt that women in this day, and especially wealthier ones, worry incessantly about constantly occupying young children with groups, lessons, activities aimed at children etc.

I actually thing there's nothing more natural than a little child pottering around after their mother especially, while she is doing normal household stuff like cooking and cleaning. Nothing makes me more happy than my little ones at my feet or by my side when I'm doing normal stuff, and after 3 babies I feel much more confident than I would with my first in saying that it's just as if not more beneficial than this obsession with constantly occupying children yourself.

Out of interest, if you always knew 100% you wanted to be a mum - would you have adopted if you couldn't have your own biological children then? I've always wondered this about anyone who uses the 100% figure.

I'm not happymum but answering anyway since you said you always wondered.

My mum adopted her fourth even though she already had 3 biological children. Don't think she's ever regretted any of us.

I would happily have adopted, but was equally happy going down the biological route.

I wouldn't have had any

A strange thread to read on MUMSnet.

I never wanted a child until I was 37. Now mum to a two year old who has immeasurably changed the lives of us (parents) and all our family for the better. Her health and happiness is my priority especially, as someone who struggled with a mental health issue (which manifested physically) for most of my life. I now wear my heart outside my body, as a PP said, but I believe my strong and independent toddler will figure out her way in the world, with plenty of support around her.

I only regret not starting sooner.

I grew up in the 60s/70s on the benign neglect model. I and sibling were expected to entertain ourselves most of the time. Don't think it did us any harm.

I'd really, really recommend that every parent read some history or anthropology of childhood stuff - this is a really nice, easy read, for instance. I used to be an academic historian (talking of things you gave up at least partially due to parenthood...) and so I read some general anthropology and long histories of childhood just as background/comparison for my own work which included stuff on youth in the early modern period and because I ended up doing some lecturing on the history of childhood, but it honestly was the most helpful thing I've ever done to shift some of my own mum guilt as you can't read this stuff and retain the idea that our modern ideals - or anybody else's - are as central, universal or 'normal' as we're all made to think. I still massively over-intensively parent and worry - because I, like everyone I ever studied, am a product of my culture - but I do find it really helps shift that sense that I might be doing it 'wrong' if I'm not doing it exactly like the next mum in the playground.

@thisusernameismine why is it a strange thread? Yes the site is called mums net but there are plenty of topics discussed not just being a parent.

Also when so many mums say if they could go back in time they would not have children (on here and in real life) I don't see that it is a strange thread at all

@thisusernameismine

A strange thread to read on MUMSnet.

I never wanted a child until I was 37. Now mum to a two year old who has immeasurably changed the lives of us (parents) and all our family for the better. Her health and happiness is my priority especially, as someone who struggled with a mental health issue (which manifested physically) for most of my life. I now wear my heart outside my body, as a PP said, but I believe my strong and independent toddler will figure out her way in the world, with plenty of support around her.

I only regret not starting sooner.

Not everyone’s life is enhanced by having children though, surely you have the awareness to realise that? If not, read through some of the examples on here. Children change some people’s lives for the worse unfortunately.

@thisusernameismine
Who cares if it's called mumsnet? The whole point of this thread, is so that some MUMS can express their alternating feelings on being a parent.

Don't act like you have to come on here and only talk about the positives.

@GreenWoodpecker123456 I absolutely agree with you. It’s too big of a risk for me that’s for sure. Husband and I are childfree for life.

Let’s face it, if children were a product you could buy, based on the description on the back of the box, nobody would want one!

I wish I’d thought through more what it would mean to bring up a child alone. I’ll be 48 by the time he leaves home, so will have spent the majority of my adult life on my own. If I knew I would be giving up the opportunity to have a meaningful relationship and a family beyond this one child, then I probably wouldn’t have continued with my pregnancy. I love him but I’ve had to completely reimagine how my life looks because of being a lone parent.

I 100% agree. Unfortunately our first child who has a genetic condition has changed our lives for the worse (I love him loads but the sleep depivation and caring for him until I die with no respite sometimes feels like a prision sentance).

Our second child however has enhanced our lives considerably and is 100 times easier than our first.

Having children is possibly the biggest gamble that people ever make.

One of the biggest things that puts me off having children is the way parents gush about parenthood.

Here are some examples right here on this thread:

"the first time [we get to] experience true unconditional love"
"the most amazing thing I've done"
"parenthood has enriched my life beyond what I ever could have expected"
"the best thing to ever happen to me"
"Having children [was] the most incredible, amazing and rewarding experience"
"joy and sheer wonder that comes from creating life"
"they enriched my life beyond my expectations"

etc etc etc

These aren't normal phrases. This is the kind of thing I'd expect to hear from someone embroiled in a cult, or on drugs. Or - dare I say it - the kind of thing someone would say when they're trying to cover up to themselves and others that they've made a mistake.

That in combination with the pressure of society puts on parents to make it out to be great, plus the stigma on parents who admit they don't like it - makes me really worried that having a child would brainwash me - both hormonally and socially.

People - especially parents - are heavily, heavily biased into saying that having kids is amazing. This bias isn't just social, but hormonal and probably psychological.

@TheClawww

One of the biggest things that puts me off having children is the way parents gush about parenthood.

Here are some examples right here on this thread:

"the first time [we get to] experience true unconditional love"
"the most amazing thing I've done"
"parenthood has enriched my life beyond what I ever could have expected"
"the best thing to ever happen to me"
"Having children [was] the most incredible, amazing and rewarding experience"
"joy and sheer wonder that comes from creating life"
"they enriched my life beyond my expectations"

etc etc etc

These aren't normal phrases. This is the kind of thing I'd expect to hear from someone embroiled in a cult, or on drugs. Or - dare I say it - the kind of thing someone would say when they're trying to cover up to themselves and others that they've made a mistake.

That in combination with the pressure of society puts on parents to make it out to be great, plus the stigma on parents who admit they don't like it - makes me really worried that having a child would brainwash me - both hormonally and socially.

People - especially parents - are heavily, heavily biased into saying that having kids is amazing. This bias isn't just social, but hormonal and probably psychological.

I agree that these are all cringey and strange things to say, which is why - as I said upthread - I'd never say them to anyone in real life except DH. I think anyone who does go around saying this sounds like, and is, a complete twat. They really are sincere expressions of how I feel, though. As I said, it's hard to convey the reality of either the depths or the heights of parenting, and they vary completely from person to person anyway, which is why I don't think anyone can ever go into it with their eyes open.

I also worried that I'd turn into some sort of generic mum before having a baby. And I both did and didn't; I did change but it wasn't against my will, what I wanted changed. And looking back my fear of being 'like a mum' was pure internalised misogyny; it's society, not reality, that says that if you change as a result of motherhood you must be less interesting, less of a person.

@TheClawww that’s OK, we all express ourselves in different ways.

I gush frequently, not just over my DCs but many other aspects of my life. Life is short and then we die - when I feel joy I want to feel it and express it in a way that adds to that happiness.

I don’t mind if you think that makes me a gushing twat - I’m sure you have a point. We all have a different emotional temperature and aptitude for happiness and it’s expressions varies between different people. If it’s any consolation, having kids is not what made me this way .

*its expressions

[quote waterproofed]@TheClawww that’s OK, we all express ourselves in different ways.

I gush frequently, not just over my DCs but many other aspects of my life. Life is short and then we die - when I feel joy I want to feel it and express it in a way that adds to that happiness.

I don’t mind if you think that makes me a gushing twat - I’m sure you have a point. We all have a different emotional temperature and aptitude for happiness and it’s expressions varies between different people. If it’s any consolation, having kids is not what made me this way .[/quote]
I don't think it makes you a gushing twat at all - and its totally fine to express yourself in that way.

My point is that many, many people who wouldn't usually use such superfluous turns of phrase seem to suddenly become almost frothy with praise on parenthood.
Taking into consideration the rush of hormones likens it to a drug high .And the pressure of society to only see parenthood as amazing likens it to a cult.

Also, the phrases that usually come out heavily imply a loss of self. It's quite frightening.

@Hardbackwriter thanks so much for the link, I'm studying a history degree and my module starting next week is on the early modern period so this will be a super interesting read! :)

A strange thread to read on MUMSnet.

In what way? Is it because of the dangerous assumption that having children is the best thing ever? That you will feel love like never before? That it never ruins lives and women never regret it and feel trapped?

I think it's an important debate to have not just on here but in society. We need to acknowledge that for some women having children has not been and will not be a positive experience and instead of keeping quiet like it's some dirty little secret, allow them to admit it, even if it's just on an anonymous Internet forum.

@TheClawww lots of things will contribute to that though - societal pressure, confirmation bias and lots of other psychological and biological mechanisms that are designed to keep us procreating.

Of course parenthood involves some self-denial but it’s also a process of self-expansion.

Also, let’s be honest, much as I am delighted to be a mother, on a societal level it’s objectively a shit deal for women. Patriarchy is very invested in making sure women’s ambivalent attitudes to childrearing are stigmatised.

@waterproofed on a societal level it’s objectively a shit deal for women

Oh absolutely, though it's certainly not advertised as such. Being a mother is meant to be every woman's life goal, don't look at the fine print that explains the sleepness nights etc etc, it's The Best Thing. Society gives it a real hard sell.

[quote TheClawww]**@waterproofed* on a societal level it’s objectively a shit deal for women*

Oh absolutely, though it's certainly not advertised as such. Being a mother is meant to be every woman's life goal, don't look at the fine print that explains the sleepness nights etc etc, it's The Best Thing. Society gives it a real hard sell.[/quote]
See, it's interesting because I really think this is changing. People always say that motherhood is portrayed as all light and love, but that isn't what I see in media I consume - from sitcoms to magazine articles to serious think pieces I think you're a lot more likely to hear about sleepless nights, PND and despair than you are about joy and the 'mummy needs gin' thing seems to me to be much more prevalent and socially acceptable than the smug mum stuff. But I think we all have big biases in what we consume and, maybe even more so, in what we notice.

I think the 'confessional piece in the New York Times about how I regret motherhood' isn't just a thing now, it's actually a pretty boring cliché.

@SecretSpAD I also think it's a strange thread. Not because of the OP but the amount of people who have commented who don't have kids professing how much they don't want them with comments of disdain about the thought of being a mother. That's a fair opinion, but the forum is for parents. So it is a bit strange.

@Hardbackwriter

I think the 'confessional piece in the New York Times about how I regret motherhood' isn't just a thing now, it's actually a pretty boring cliché.

Back when I was ttc in the 90s such a piece would have been unthinkable. Nobody talked about the downsides at all or only in a lighthearted sort of way ending with but it's all so so worth it.

@CounsellorTroi

I grew up in the 60s/70s on the benign neglect model. I and sibling were expected to entertain ourselves most of the time. Don't think it did us any harm.

haha, now I come to think of it so did I:o (I hope my parents enjoy the benign neglect that they'll be getting back from me)