To think that the decision to have children is a risk...

[GreenWoodpecker123456]

...because you can never be sure whether you'll enjoy being a parent, what kind of child you'll have etc.

I ws having this conversation with someone and they said it's no more of a risk than anything else in life like getting married or going into a particular career.

I don't agree, because having kids is the one thing in life that you truly can't reverse!

AIBU?

On MN they do. A lot.

Would you rather that they didn't?

@pigeonsfeather

Parenthood can make you quite selfish. It is obvious why: it’s needed for the future of your child. You have to put your child above everything else. I was a lot less selfish before children.

I agree with this. I used to do a lot more things that were for the good of people outside my own family unit - I was more politically active, I volunteered, I gave a lot more of myself to friends - before I had a baby. I have never really seen why it is ever described as selfless to have a child or more selfish not to.

I think having children is a massive risk but if you want to have them it's a risk that it would be mad not to take. DH and I very much, resolutely did, though I think our fertility issues/my miscarriages very much cemented the want and I wouldn't have been so certain if it had come easily, and having DS was the best decision I've ever made. Choosing not to have a baby because I might not have enjoyed motherhood would have been choosing not to love DH because we might split up or he might die before me. Always choosing safety and the known is no way to live a life, and that's true whether or not you have children.

@PlonkItDownNOW

On MN they do. A lot.

Would you rather that they didn't?

If it helps them plonk, then they should do so as much as they wish. But I do think it can lead to an idea that most people regret having children. I’m not sure that’s true.

That was a lovely post Hardback

@Ori32

I didn’t want to die regretting that I’d never had children. Children are a gift. They give you an opportunity to be the best version of yourself, to become more, to love more, to see & experience more. They challenge your ego & this is painful at times but you are on the path to experiencing unconditional love & no other commitment you undertake offers such spiritually important growth. They will return all you give to them as well. Watching them develop into happy little people before your eyes gives you a deep peace & satisfaction, & you realise that your ego wasn’t doing you any favours anyway.

Having your own family is such a joy. It transforms your value system & you can have such fun together. Unlike any other commitment you sign up to in life, this one is truly transformational. It is time well spent.

See, that's clearly sincere, but I think that's your experience, and your obvious bent for spiritual stuff speaking.

I have a child I adore, but I remain much the same person as I was before I had him, just that person with a beloved child. My value system certainly hasn't been transformed, and I retain every vestige of my pre-parenthood ego and ambition, and I'm fine with that.

And to be honest, as well as thinking it isn't true of the generality of parents, I think it's pretty insulting to both the child-free and the childless to suggest that parenthood transforms you into your 'best self' and you 'are more' and 'love more' and 'see more' as a parent, or that it's the sole route to 'spiritually important growth'. An equally valid view is that it's a mindless, instinctive animal urge to reproduce, surely?

You say it's rewarding to watch your children 'develop into happy little people' -- suppose they don't? Suppose they are averagely troubled, anxious children, or difficult, out of control teenagers, requiring you to do battle with CAMHS and diagnoses to get help for them? Isn't that an equally valid, and less rosy view of parenthood?

@PlonkItDownNOW

To me, the risk of dying with regret having spent a lifetime without children frightened me far, far more than the other possibility - that I would live to regret having them. I know that some people do regret their children but I would hazard a guess most parents don’t. Of course they are hard work, & they will change your life. But you get out what you put in, so you have a chance through them to be the best you can be.

Not to be harsh but yes you have to be prepared to do it all alone.... Wish I'd had mine years ago

@Bunnymumy

I think it's a risk because it can utterly destroy your body. Or leave you with postnatal depression.Even (highly unlikely but it does happen) potentially kill you. If we were properly educated from youth on that damage pregnancy and childbirth dies to a womans body, I daresay a lot more of us would avoid it.

I just don't think this is true. I've known lots of women who suffered very badly from birth damage and they've always wished they could change things (usually they wish they'd been offered an elective caesarean) but I've never heard anyone say - including on MN, where plenty of people say they regret having children - that they'd never have had their child at all. I knew before I had my own first baby that my mum has never fully recovered from my own forceps delivery and it terrified me but it didn't make me question whether I should have a baby myself. I think the urge to have a child - and the sense most people have of 'it won't happen to me' - is a lot stronger than any of these 'if women only knew the truth' posts allow for.

You have to be maternal/paternal to begin with

Definitely not.
I didn’t have the best start in life and any thought of children was drowned out by people telling me what a terrible mother I would make.
On paper I wouldn’t say I was a great bet.
And I was the most unmaternal person.

Dd was a surprise pregnancy at the very end of my 30s
I was pregnant with Ds within 18months.
It was the best thing I have ever done and my regret was to listen to other people about how hard it was and how I would struggle and hate my life after children.

If I could go back I would have started much earlier and had more children.

I know a couple of people who were definitely not maternal in the least bit and have taken to motherhood like it was what they were meant to do all along.

I think people can really only talk about their own experiences though. My experience will have been very different to that of others. I am very very glad that I can now count my children among my best friends, but when i was raising them solo there were days I could quite cheerfully have strapped all of us into the car and driven off a cliff.

How much help you get impacts massively on the experience of having children. Having an involved partner, being able to afford to buy in help or outsource housework...

@Friendsoftheearth

I wish the downsides and risks were highlighted more frequently, we tend to live in a society that glosses over the reality - magazines full of celebrities with matching children as if they are nothing more than accessories. You even see this with Kate and William to some extent. The risks should be highlighted to everyone:

Your body will never be the same
Your children can be born with disabilities which may mean you life will be forever compromised
You are unlikely to sleep for years and years unless you are very lucky
Children cost a fortune
You may feel vulnerable once you have children
Your ability to think with clarity and precision will be compromised for years
There is no such thing as the perfect family
Your child may grow up to be everything you don't like in a person
It is decades and decades of commitment
It is mentally and physically draining
You may have long periods of feeling alone and lonely
Having the best of the both worlds does not exist
Leaving your children with other people can be very hard
Not leaving your children with other people can be very hard (on you)
No one gives a damn, and you rarely get a thank you or acknowledgement
Your freedom and liberty is curtailed in ways you can not envisage
You may be locked into a family unit that no longer suits you
It can be mundane and boring
Breast feeding can be agony for some
Your life will never be the same again

Even with some of the above being a reality for me, having children was still the most incredible, amazing and rewarding experience, because the list of joy and sheer wonder that comes from creating life far outweighs the downsides and risks for many parents.

This with bells on

@FutureProofed

Of course it’s my experience! Who’s else would it be?! You can take it or leave it, as you wish. I wasn’t intending to insult anyone but I stand by what I personally feel about the experience of having had children. Others may have different stories of course but that was mine. Sorry if you don’t like it!

I also think its impossible to describe parenthood in a way that makes other people 'know' what it's like without experiencing it, anyway. I knew before having DS that I would be tired, for instance, but I had no idea of the toll that long-term sleep deprivation would take on me; I thought 'no one told me!' but of course they did, but not in a way that made me comprehend. Conversely, I couldn't possibly describe the depth of my love for him, or how happy he makes DH and I. Nor would I want to - and I do always think this when people without children say 'all my friends with children hate their lives'. I would never, ever start talking about how amazing DS is and how much joy he brings me to all but a handful of people in the world and not to anyone without children; it would feel smug and embarrassing (I would never start gushing on about DH, either). I try just not to talk a lot about him to my friends (relatively few of whom have children) but when I do it's usually a 'funny' story about a particularly ridiculous tantrum or a wry comment about the state of my body, etc. My friends all know I love DS but they probably would think the slog to joy ratio was a lot worse than it is because I don't know how I'd convey otherwise without being the worst kind of tedious, smug parent that everyone loves to hate.

I had all the joys and felt fulfilled when I had my first son at the age of 40. I could hardly hear anyone saying that it is drudgery, boring etc because he was so utterly precious to me.

Fast forward to now, he is 14 and has a nine-year-old brother. They are both precious but all that I have had to give up as a person - I wonder if it actually is worth it. What price is your very liberty?

Thankfully, it's becoming much more acceptable to say that you feel trapped and unfulfilled by motherhood.

For me the loss of liberty feels very real and I suffer a lot because of it. I'm not taking a bit of time alone, it's more that I 'belong to them' if you see what I mean.

Oh, and children are great at taking, but not so good at giving.

I think we get 'love them!' shoved down our throats as well, or we are viewed as monsters.

Absolutely. Especially as they can have special needs, medical issues, mental health disorders etc.
It's a big risk but IMO worth taking if you deeply want a child.

I somewhat disagree with the comment about not knowing what sort of child you will get. You cannot control their physical attributes, but you most definitely shape their behaviour and the people that they become.

Only up to a point. They are already individuals. Not unsculpted lumps of clay or blank canvases.

It is a massive gamble huge risks and huge pay offs.

www.newscientist.com/article/2213655-having-kids-makes-you-happier-but-only-when-they-move-out/
When it comes to who is happier, people with kids or those without, most research points to the latter. But a new study suggests that parents are happier than non-parents later in life, when their children move out and become sources of social enjoyment rather than stress.

I have a family member who didn't seem to enjoy at all being a mother - despite a whole load of support from her family way more than most. The older child got more positive the relationship got and despite initial reservations about being a grandparent has wholly loved it - they don't babysit or do stuff like that but fun days out with children and parents. They were pseudo GP to family friends’ children but as soon as friends didn't need help - babysitting etc they were dropped and now never see those children now adults.

I know family friends who child’s metal illness which happened late teens has dominated their lives and still dose though "child" is now mid 40s so I think they have regrets.

Things is vampire analogy is correct – in that people can tell you what’s it was like for them but actually for you it could be completely different experience. I was also changed - my brain and body changed by pg and my prioritises.

It's been hard - harder and with implications I didn't foresee but biggest surprise to me how much shear joy and satisfaction motherhood brought me personally. Other will dismiss that - but for some of us it is on the a whole great experince.

I did have a mssive wobble in first pg despite years of wanting and frankly one of the best prepared mother I ever met - former nanny and nusury teacher is one fo the few like my family member who has loads of family support plus family always willing to have child - hated motherhood. So despite being happy I can see the huge risks involved though perphaps I didn't see before having them.

I also think that in so many cases - not all, but so many - when women talk about what they've lost by having children they actually mean what their partner has stolen from them. So many of the things that are presented as absolutely insurmountable downsides of motherhood are actually things that are hugely mitigated if you do 50% of the work of having a child rather than the 80-90% that the vast majority of women do.

@Hardbackwriter

I also think that in so many cases - not all, but so many - when women talk about what they've lost by having children they actually mean what their partner has stolen from them. So many of the things that are presented as absolutely insurmountable downsides of motherhood are actually things that are hugely mitigated if you do 50% of the work of having a child rather than the 80-90% that the vast majority of women do.

Yup, we have been victims of a long con ☹️

Hmm I think if you view it as a risk then you shouldn't have children. None of that thinking ever crossed my mind. I just really wanted to be a mum and still 3 boys later am happy with my choice. It is exhausting but the rewards are great and I can't think of anything I'd rather do. I agree it's scary to imagine your child might be disabled or get hurt etc but it still never would put me off having a child. You deal with what each day throws at you and you adapt. Nothing is the end of the world.

[quote Ori32]@FutureProofed

Of course it’s my experience! Who’s else would it be?! You can take it or leave it, as you wish. I wasn’t intending to insult anyone but I stand by what I personally feel about the experience of having had children. Others may have different stories of course but that was mine. Sorry if you don’t like it![/quote]
Yet you've consciously or unconsciously presented it as a generalisation about parenthood, not as your specific experience of parenting your specific child or children. Note the contrast with my response, which uses 'I' throughout.

@Hardbackwriter

I also think that in so many cases - not all, but so many - when women talk about what they've lost by having children they actually mean what their partner has stolen from them. So many of the things that are presented as absolutely insurmountable downsides of motherhood are actually things that are hugely mitigated if you do 50% of the work of having a child rather than the 80-90% that the vast majority of women do.

This is entirely true, and one of the most surprising and depressing things I've learned from Mumsnet in the years I've been on here, because I see much more egalitarian relationships around me in RL.

I also agree with @SarahAndQuack's point up the thread that many of the things people complain about in relation to parenthood are not intrinsic to parenthood and are capable of alteration.

I think it's pretty insulting to both the child-free and the childless to suggest that parenthood transforms you into your 'best self' and you 'are more' and 'love more' and 'see more' as a parent, or that it's the sole route to 'spiritually important growth

Yes, it is. I'm not spiritual so have no interest in spiritual growth and I'm very happy being the person I am.

I do think that whilst this is a legitimate personal experience for that poster, there are a lot of women out there who have children because they think this is what they will be getting. And then disappointed when they realise that it's not their experience.

A friend of mine has never bonded with one of her three children. The child is a teenager now and luckily doesn't seem to realise because her mother is good at faking it. I know this friend was not prepared for feeling that way. I know how much she has tried desperately to feel something for her own child, and especially when the other two came along and she bonded and loved them immediately. Her own husband doesn't even know how she feels - only two close friends who don't have children...because we were the only ones she felt that she could admit this too and not be judged.

I welcome a world where girls are educated into making informed choices for them about whether or not they want children. Where they are not expected to just because it is the next step, because society says they should or just because they think it will fill something in their lives. The most fulfilled and happy parents I know are the ones who didn't have a child to fill a gap - but because they wanted a child to raise.

I think it is good that more and more women are actually thinking about whether to have children or not. Really though everyone should think about it. So many though have children because "it's what you do" without even thinking if they want them, what their life will be like.

I am surprised that the damage done to your body does not put more women off.

Personally I am just so glad I don't have the incontinence problems that it seems almost all women who have children have. To have to plan your day if you go out because of needing the loo so often would drive me mad. Also having to get up in the night. Once asleep I like staying that way until morning.

Definitely. Dh and I said from the beginning that we won't be having children. There's never even a day that I consider it. I don't want to take the risk, and to be quite honest, I don't think i'd enjoy any aspects of it.