Sir Keir Starmer's speech has just given me a lot of hope...

[fishywaters]

Just that. There seems to be some hope for the future given the current Brexit/Corona mess. en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keir_Starmer
He seems intelligent, aware, fairer, musical (aka creative thinker), more of a family man, mum was a nurse. More able to see what will be important for the many in our society. I am a Centrist by the way, but I have more faith in this man. He seems professional and ready to do the right thing.

@dogsarebetterthanpeople. I do actually. Support for women fleeing domestic violence has been dramatically cut under the tory party resulting in 100s of unnecessary deaths.

I think Starmer is cleverly playing the long game and things will gradually improve under labour whereas under the tories things are set to get dramatically worse.

For example just look at the impact of Brexit on women's rights.
www.bestforbritain.org/womensrights

The tories have a culture of misogyny from the top down, just look at Johnson's views on women.

“Just pat her on the bottom and send her on her way” This was Johnson's advice to his successor (which he published as part of a piece) when he left as editor ofThe Spectator. It was a direct reference to Kimberly Quinn, who was then the publisher of the magazine, and what he suggested the editor should do when she offered advice on how to boost circulation.

In The Spectator, he also wrote that it's "outrageous that married couples should pay for ‘the single mothers’ desire to procreate independently of men", as well as arguing that it was “feeble” for a man to be unable or unwilling to “take control of his woman” and that Britain needed to “restore women’s desire to be married

There are many more examples.

Support for women fleeing domestic violence has been dramatically cut under the tory party resulting in 100s of unnecessary deaths
Let men in as Labour wishes and they won’t even exist anymore.

I think Starmer is cleverly playing the long game and things will gradually improve under labour whereas under the tories things are set to get dramatically worse
Not unless he throws out pretty much the entire party and has nothing to do with momentum anymore.
I don’t think that’s likely.
Starmer never outright defended the rights of women and stated that self ID would be brought in at some point remember.
My trust is gone.
For as long as Boris is in power he has my vote.
If he leaves, I probably won’t vote at all.

For example just look at the impact of Brexit on women's rights.
www.bestforbritain.org/
I’m a remainer.
Brexit will be horrendous on so many levels I know.

The tories have a culture of misogyny from the top down, just look at Johnson's views on women
“Just pat her on the bottom and send her on her way” This was Johnson's advice to his successor (which he published as part of a piece) when he left as editor ofThe Spectator. It was a direct reference to Kimberly Quinn, who was then the publisher of the magazine, and what he suggested the editor should do when she offered advice on how to boost circulation
In The Spectator, he also wrote that it's "outrageous that married couples should pay for ‘the single mothers’ desire to procreate independently of men", as well as arguing that it was “feeble” for a man to be unable or unwilling to “take control of his woman” and that Britain needed to “restore women’s desire to be married’
I said compared to the other parties he is an ally.
Which he is.
The other parties are actively trying to destroy women.
He is the only one that has actually taken some action to somewhat safeguard women.

@Dogsarebetterthanpeople

I dont know about his time as Mayor but Boris' voting record in the commons, on women's issues, can mostly generously be described as 'patchy'.

graziadaily.co.uk/life/in-the-news/what-is-boris-johnston-voting-record-on-women-issues/

@FatherBuzzCagney

The whataboutery is not being applied to anti-Semitism (which is a scourge, and every bit as abhorrent as any form of racism) but to people's inconsistency in holding one political party to account for its brand of racism and not another.

But what does that have to do with a discussion about antisemitism in the Labour party, which was provoked by a (now deleted) antisemitic comment from someone who said they were on the left of the Labour party? If this had been a 'which major UK party has the worst problem with racism?' discussion then fair enough, but when the response to people challenging someone on their own antisemitism is 'but what about the Tories?', that's not a great look.

I wasn't referring to Labour as a party - of course they should not respond to their issues with antisemitism with whataboutery. They need to do some deep internal work, self-review and improvement on this. What I was referring to is voter logic which is inconsistent, and which is very relevant to comments stating that they won't vote for Labour based on racism. If you care about eliminating racism, you care about eliminating it in all its forms, and I don't believe the Tory party have been held accountable by voters in the same way for its racism that Labour has. They should be equally castigated by the voter, otherwise it would appear that people care about some forms of racism more than others.

*I dont know about his time as Mayor but Boris' voting record in the commons, on women's issues, can mostly generously be described as 'patchy'.
I agree, but it remains that so far, he is the only one who has actually stepped up and safeguarded women’s safe spaces.
I’m not saying he is a diehard feminist or anything, we know he certainly has some sexist opinions.
But alas, he is still the only one to actually do something against this self ID nonsense

@Dogsarebetterthanpeople
I like your username. Very true!

WeepingWillow youre still missing the point.

Under Tories, we can fight for womens rights.
Under Labour we cant even discuss womens rights, as thats anti-trans bigotry.

I agree he's a sound man. Trouble is he has the Labour Party shackled to him.

@Swiftnicola

I have hope that Starmer may swing some SNP voters towards labour. Which would be fantastic from my point of view

I'm curious what you think it is Starmer offers that is likely to attract SNP voters?

I honestly don't think he has a hope in hell in Scotland

Neither do I

Every SNP member I've asked sees Westminster Labour's move away from Corbynism and toward the centre as a retrograde step. Considering Corbyn's politics appear to be far more in line with those of the SNP, much of what he was proposing for rUK has already been implemented in Scotland so far as devolved powers permit, and even then Labour continued their long downward spiral north of the border, I honestly can't see why returning to the sort of anodyne Blairism that Scotland increasingly rejected from the early 2000's onwards would result an any sort of resurgence.

They've painted themselves in to corner whereby they only actually appeal to a very specific demographic in Scotland, and the Tories have most of that market cornered anyway. Simply reverting back to 'Tory lite' is going to achieve absolutely nothing. They automatically write themselves off as a possibility for over half the Scots electorate simply by remaining wholeheartedly pro-union in any case, so until such time they at least adopt an impartial stance on constitutional change, they're making it impossible for themselves to ever re-emerge as a party of any significance.

@Joywave - I can't speak for anyone else but I fully expect the tories to be racist. I expect better from the Labour Party. FWIW I didn't vote Tory at the last election - I couldn't bring myself to do that - I spoiled my ballot.

I’m in scotland. Voted labour for years until Corbyn arrived and the antisemitism and wokeness.

I vote Tory largely because there is no other option available to me as I find the SNP appalling.

I am seriously considering a move back to Labour and there are many similar people like me - anti SNP and want to switch back to Labour.

I’m watching carefully.

Go on Kier...

@Joywave

I'm also shocked at this - and I say this as a person worried about TWAW. I think it's a very blinkered view and one which completely disregards any intersectional issues. As a BAME person my rights as a person of colour are as important to me as my rights as a woman, and some of the refusal to engage with issues of racism because of associated 'wokeness' of the TWAW variety sickens me, as does the willingness to associate with far-right groups who quite frankly hate women, just because they refute TWAW.

There’s another thread where more than one with anti TWAW views said they would vote for Trump if they were American over this issue. As a BAME woman I was astonished by this and just goes to show you that some people are truly blinkered. How can TWAW be more important than access to contraception, the right to choose, affordable childcare so mothers can work, etc?

I’ve just seen news that women 20-40 are now the top group being put in hospital for COVID, and this follows the huge rate of death among BAME people in the UK. But we should back Boris because he’s not TWAW?! It’s mental.

So remind me, how did Labour deal with the anti-semitism again?

The Tories don't give a shit about women.
Funding has been cut to many services.
The effect of Tory cuts on issues that affect mostly women have been awful.
Women are going to bear the brunt of this pandemic.

I think some people on here would prefer to cut off their nose to spite their face.

Oh - and the Tories also are going to reform gender recognition to make the process simpler. They have dropped self ID

When did you last hear a Tory Minister asked about trans people - rarely. Yet Labour get asked about it a lot

The Tories rarely get asked about Islamophobia in their party.

It's almost as if there were double standards.

The Labour party is a joke. I wont vote for a party that puts identity politics at the heart of its marketing strategy.

I actually feel the Tories do a way better job at quietly being inclusive without their amazing inclusivity being their selling point.

I'm not sure where that leaves me as a voter. I always voted Labour, I voted Lib Dem and then we got shafted by Clegg, then I voted Green.

It all feels a bit weird. I vote Green as a kind of reluctant fallback vote. I will continue to vote Green until we get a Labour party that is concerned with representing the silent majority and working poor of the country.

@chomalungma Hello? When a party (Labour) builds their entire identity on "we are not nasty like the Nasty Party!" you will be asked to prove your "non nastiness".

Labour built a rod for it's own back because of its post Blair strategy, when it stopped being a party that stood FOR things and became a party that stood AGAINST things. It began taking a defensive approach rather than offensive, always on the back foot, always measuring itself against the Tories rather than coming up with a new practical vision for how it would adapt to new challenges.

If you're always banging on about how other parties are mean and racist, you're going to be asked to prove you arent

As a previously card-carrying Labour voter, TWAW is an absolute red line for me. It means they are prepared to not only throw women’s rights and safety under a bus, but deny us the ability to discuss and speak about it as well (note members being expelled for refusing to follow the TWAW line). I think Labour has gravely underestimated the strength of the opposition among voters on this point.

Its going to be an interesting three years in the Labour party.

@frumpety

Its going to be an interesting three years in the Labour party.

It's going to be an interesting 3 years in all parties.

I think Keir is coming across well. There are many things that matter to voters such as education, jobs, the NHS, the cost of living, levelling up in areas that have suffered under years of Tory cuts. Brexit will have been around for several years and we will have a massive debt - and presumably a deficit to think about.

@chomalungma I was thinking more from an ideological standpoint, I don't think the Conservatives have to change or re-invent themselves in quite the same way ?

I don't think the Conservatives have to change or re-invent themselves in quite the same way

Depends if they go further right to try and woo a certain set of voters.
Because that could alienate their voters who are not comfortable if they go too right.

He’s a politician and therefore a performer and game player. He’s found a character he thinks will appeal to a certain demographic He’s saying what he wants those people to hear. It’s also interesting to hear someone try and claim the higher moral ground because they’re a lawyer!😂.

I'm hopeful, and lord knows I need to vote for someone and I don't know who else, but like many on here I also need Labour to drop the TWAW stuff and stop throwing women under a bus.

@MyOwnSummer

To answer the PP about why the TWAW thing is such a big deal to so many - because it involves fundamentally undermining the rights of women to define ourselves as a group.

This is not an abstract, remote issue if you care about women's sport, women's health conditions (routinely ignored, misdiagnosed, underfunded), women's safety in hospitals, prisons, changing rooms and refuges. This absolutely is a big deal - our fundamental human rights are always a big deal.

There is another aspect to the woke thing that has nothing to do with trans and is if anything more disturbing. It is the purity spiralling refusal to debate or discuss anything, the shrieks of "bigot" at anything which does not toe the line 100%. Open debate and discussion is the cornerstone of democracy, lose that and there really isn't much left.

This with bells on. It's very very fundamentally about the erosion of women's human rights. It's not a little side issue about who uses what toilets.