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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

To not understand why people are still having kids?

688 replies

Tobythecat · 20/09/2020 19:21

I understand that the urge to reproduce is very strong, but the future looks incredibly bleak (I'm not talking about just covid, but also climate change). I fear for the future and what sort of quality of life people will have, considering Automation/competition over jobs, climate change issues (food/water shortages, extreme weather). Honestly, how can you think that everything will be fine and work itself out, or do you just not think about it? Children today will face unimagineable suffering in the next 20-30 years, how can you justify it to them? I wanted children desperately but decided not to because of the above, plus genetic factors.

People mention the war and how people kept having kids, but the threats we face have never been faced before and are multifaceted. Is existing to suffer better than not existing at all?

OP posts:
YouWereGr8InLittleMenstruators · 21/09/2020 19:37

What I don't get about these threads is that it is apparently fine to shame and ridicule people who legitimately worry about the climate, accusing them of 'shame-dumping' (wtf!?), scare-mongering and catastrophising, as if they're deliberately setting out to upset mothers. I refuse to believe that women bearing children are not already thinking about these things. Of course we are. The thread's upsetting? The state of the planet is upsetting! If parents, who have the most precious stakes in the future well-being of the biosphere, are not able to summon their collective strength to bring about change, starting with normalising conversation about the climate / the environment, however uncomfortable, for fear of being guilt-tripped by other parents for voicing reasonable concern, I feel quite sad about that.

OliviaBenson · 21/09/2020 19:42

@YouWereGr8InLittleMenstruators

What I don't get about these threads is that it is apparently fine to shame and ridicule people who legitimately worry about the climate, accusing them of 'shame-dumping' (wtf!?), scare-mongering and catastrophising, as if they're deliberately setting out to upset mothers. I refuse to believe that women bearing children are not already thinking about these things. Of course we are. The thread's upsetting? The state of the planet is upsetting! If parents, who have the most precious stakes in the future well-being of the biosphere, are not able to summon their collective strength to bring about change, starting with normalising conversation about the climate / the environment, however uncomfortable, for fear of being guilt-tripped by other parents for voicing reasonable concern, I feel quite sad about that.
Very well said! I couldn't agree more.
slipperywhensparticus · 21/09/2020 19:47

I think you need some help and support in real life

Kazakaren · 21/09/2020 19:54

I think you need some help and support in real life

Why?

Snackasaurus · 21/09/2020 20:29

If people waited for the 'right time' though, nobody would ever have babies.

We're having a baby because we want to have a baby. We both work full time, we have a home, we have savings and we both have supportive families. It's not for other people to decide when others have kids!

PablosHoney · 21/09/2020 21:28

The thread is not upsetting the specific wording of the OP is.

ReeseWitherfork · 21/09/2020 21:37

Did I miss the bit where someone offered a scientific reason why having children is so awful?

ChristmasCarcass · 21/09/2020 21:38

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

YouWereGr8InLittleMenstruators · 21/09/2020 21:40

I think you need some help and support in real life

This kind of comment is exactly what I mean. OP did mention she resented her parents for having her, as she believed they may have passed on Autism and a MH issue. This candid sharing has been taken as some kind of carte blanche to pity OP, or explain away OP's concerns over the environment, as some kind of bi-product of poor mental health or an attitude problem. OP and others have been told they'd probably be 'no fun at a party', that they are 'doom-mongers', hysterical and 'cruel'. And 'coercive'. That's low. Women old enough to bear children are most likely adults, capable of making their own decisions, hopefully based on readily available science. We're having babies, for goodness sake, and need to be made of sterner stuff. Why is a conversation on an internet forum so triggering that it becomes acceptable to deride the 'opposition' in this way?

Kazakaren · 21/09/2020 21:46

Why is a conversation on an internet forum so triggering that it becomes acceptable to deride the 'opposition' in this way?

That's how it's done these days. People don't know how to discuss and debate anymore. They prefer to try and silence the dissenting voice by nasty comments, put downs and jibes to shut them up.

Kazakaren · 21/09/2020 21:48

But you’re still here aren’t you? Not so angry about being alive that you’ve done anything about it, despite the “unimaginable suffering” you expect to experience in the next 20 years.

What are you suggesting she does about it??

Original poster
Tobythecat · 21/09/2020 22:01

@ChristmasCarcass

Yes, I am angry at my parents for having me, but thats because they passed down autism and mh issues

But you’re still here aren’t you? Not so angry about being alive that you’ve done anything about it, despite the “unimaginable suffering” you expect to experience in the next 20 years.

Are you suggesting that I should commit suicide?
OP posts:
YouWereGr8InLittleMenstruators · 21/09/2020 22:11

OP, I have reported Christmas' comment.

PablosHoney · 21/09/2020 22:14

So I have I, I don’t agree with the OP but that’s not right at all.

ReeseWitherfork · 21/09/2020 22:17

That's how it's done these days. People don't know how to discuss and debate anymore.
I’ve really seen no debate. I’m yet to see anyone explain to my why having children is so terrible. Aside from one 10 year old outdated source.

The latest figures (2018) state that the fertility rate in the U.K. is 1.68. Which to note, is a downwards trend (it was 2.6 in 1968). So people are making the decision to have less children; we are not replacing like for like so the population will decrease.

For comparison, the 2018 figures were:
1.88 in France
1.73 in US
1.57 in Germany
1.29 in Italy

The global fertility rate is 2.415, down from 4.922 in 1968. So overall a drop over the 40 years. As the number is above 2, the global population will continue to increase. However, if we extrapolate the trend, this number will eventually fall below 2. And the big point with fertility rates is that they are generally higher in less economically development countries (and vice versa). So economic advancement results in less babies.

If OPs point was: “why does anyone ever have children?” then it comes across slightly hysterical. And as pointed out on the thread, humanity would cease to exist in about 50-80 years. I don’t know whether humanity should exist but a PP claiming to have studied the philosophy of it has suggested she thinks yes. It’s hard to debate as that’s just OPs personal opinion that humanity should end. Surely you can forgive posters for not easily agreeing to be so bleak? Highly emotive subject, hard to debate logically (happy for you to disagree if you can articulate why?)

If the OPs point was: “why don’t people have less children?” then this would be a relatively valid question to which the answer is “we are, see the data”.

And whether having a child is the worst thing you can do for the environment: I’m yet to see anyone mention government policy. The U.K. has a legal requirement to arrive at net zero admissions by 2050. If we succeed then the climate change factor in deciding whether to reproduce becomes null (as long as everyone stays in this country of course; big ask but many other wealthy countries have similar targets).

PinkLegoBrick · 21/09/2020 22:33

The fertility rate is falling rapidly which will improve climate change.

www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/health-53409521

SleepingStandingUp · 21/09/2020 22:50

@MoaningMurlock

Excuse we might be birthing the geniuses that figure out how to fix the mess? Or the charismatic leader who takes us in to the new tomorrow?

Or in my case the Antichrist, who is going to make our suffering short.

I have twins, one will solve the needs from the lab and the other will use this solution to take us to a new tomorrow. Your antichrist shall repent and make a triumvirate of goodliness
YouWereGr8InLittleMenstruators · 21/09/2020 22:59

Reese, I see from your contributions on this thread that you and I are focusing on different things in the OP; you are keen for someone to supply a current source for whether having a child in a western economy is as detrimental to the environment as we have been led to believe, and have repeatedly requested this.
What I see is this bit: "Honestly, how can you think that everything will be fine and work itself out, or do you just not think about it? ...how can you justify it to them?". I think OP is asking a much more personal question;
if current climate science is to be believed, kids born now will likely experience the effects of climate change while we, their parents, are still around to answer their questions about how we responded to the opportunity to do something about it. And if this is the question, and if parents and children are already experiencing the impact of climate change in many parts of the world, then the question of whether or not having another kid is detrimental to the environment becomes a moot point, as it is already happening to those of us who are already here, and that's bad enough, whether they're growing up in Bangladesh, Queensland, Chad or on the Norfolk coast.

On a different note, it seems to me that revision of the "one child less" argument relies on factoring in the effects of future government policy to reduce individual emissions. For this to be significant, it implies future restrictions on consumption, travel and use of resources in general, so hardly a 'as you were, crack on!' scenario. I can't decide whether I find this reliance on a change in global governmental policy refreshingly optimistic or touchingly naïve.

Leobynature · 21/09/2020 23:00

I do understand some if your thinking, life is hard and there are great concerns ahead.
When I think about my children I am hopeful they will have a good life and only the next generation can really make a decision about their suffering and willingness to change The world.

My ancestors were slaves, my grandparents didn’t go to school, my father grew up in great poverty, he experienced hunger and illness. He received a very poor education and struggles to read and write. All his children are degree educated and we do ok financially. We are happy and healthy. I believe my children will never experience this type of suffering and I am pleased each generation of my race excels the next. Thank goodness my ancestors did not stop reproducing.

ChristmasCarcass · 21/09/2020 23:24

Tobythecat no of course not, I’m saying you obviously don’t think this threat of “unimaginable suffering” is that off-putting either, so why would anybody else?

whatthehellis · 21/09/2020 23:27

Maybe my son will save the world 🤷🏻‍♀️

Aerial2020 · 21/09/2020 23:38

What are you doing for climate change then OP?
What are you doing for the planet apart from judging parents?
Did you blame your parents for being born?

Shikamiri · 21/09/2020 23:40

00100001

Unimaginable suffering?? confused

Like what? confused

Dunno, maybe the OP can't imagine it grin

@worraliberty 😂😂😂😂😂😂

aSofaNearYou · 21/09/2020 23:46

no of course not, I’m saying you obviously don’t think this threat of “unimaginable suffering” is that off-putting either, so why would anybody else?

This is what I'm struggling to get past. It just feels like a very odd argument to me to genuinely expect your children to begrudge you for choosing to have them, because of the impact it had on the environment. I just seriously doubt that very many children who are not suicidal for other reasons would think that way.

YouWereGr8InLittleMenstruators · 22/09/2020 00:09

Sofa, OP was born, and since that event (although by no means because of it), the global environment has been in steady decline, chiefly on account of a warming climate. OP, through no fault of her own, will face the consequences of the climate emergency as an adult, and is perhaps generously thinking that her parents, however many decades ago, we're not as aware of pending environmental issues as today's parents are, and therefore does not hold them accountable. Facing said consequences of environmental degradation as an adult is, in OP's own words 'bleak'. But, when I read about crop failures, melting permafrost and civil unrest and all the rest of it, I worry loads more for my DC than I do for myself, because I'm an adult, and they are still kids, and will be kids for a good while longer. OP is asking why parents today continue to have children, and whether "they think that everything will be fine and work itself out", or whether they "just don't think about it"? The way I read it, OP is empathising with the children of the future.