To not understand why people are still having kids?

[Tobythecat]

I understand that the urge to reproduce is very strong, but the future looks incredibly bleak (I'm not talking about just covid, but also climate change). I fear for the future and what sort of quality of life people will have, considering Automation/competition over jobs, climate change issues (food/water shortages, extreme weather). Honestly, how can you think that everything will be fine and work itself out, or do you just not think about it? Children today will face unimagineable suffering in the next 20-30 years, how can you justify it to them? I wanted children desperately but decided not to because of the above, plus genetic factors.

People mention the war and how people kept having kids, but the threats we face have never been faced before and are multifaceted. Is existing to suffer better than not existing at all?

[AllOfUsAreDead]

I know this is an old thread, but since it's been brought back up again, I don't think that the human race dying out is a bad thing to be honest. For all that we've done to earth, we don't exactly deserve to live here. We've destroyed it, and despite what shite plans we have in place, we just continue to destroy it.

And you can think your kids will have a good future if you want but unless you're rich, they'll likely be working until they are 80/90 or until they drop because pensions are just getting worse. I think my generation is the last to get a pension that will actually support them, and I'm not certain on that. Plus living on a planet that will likely be worse than it is now economically and environmentally, I'm just basing that on our ability to elect morons into power. It's not a great future..

[slashlover]

@Arealnumber

Unnecessarily patronising comment. Do you not read actual news, what the UN are predicting and warning us of.......or do you just prefer to live in complete denial?

You do realise that this comment (and the entire thread) is from 18 months ago? Did you miss the little this thread is over a year old, do you REALLY want to post on it? note?

[Thirkettle]

Love how you think this is such a fascinating hot take, to come to Mumsnet and ask. Really asking the important questions there.

[housemaus]

I agree with you, OP.

Those saying 'we had kids during the bubonic plague' etc - yeah, when contraception wasn't an option, abortion was dangerous or lethal to the mother, marital rape was much more common, etc. Family planning as we know it has only been a real, mostly safe option for ~50 years.

There are so many reasons I don't feel like bringing a child into the world right now would be a good thing - it'd be done because I wanted it, not because I think they'd be entering an improving world that would be a good life for them.

Climate change is already having an effect - whether or not we'll reach the catastrophe point in the next 20-30 years, I don't know, but the IPCC report this week makes clear that things are moving more quickly than we realised. We already see the effects on the weather, on shifting growing zones for crops, on water shortages. Those things will have continued geopolitical and health effects - it might not be 'my hypothetical child dehydrating to death in a barren desert where the Midlands used to be', but the effects of a lot of people being displaced due to water shortages and lack of crops and unliveable climates will be huge.
(I have a friend who works in data modelling in climate change. He's not having kids because he says his conscience wouldn't allow it, knowing the possibilities. Says a lot, to me).

Late stage capitalism and the political landscape in the UK means that financially, things are likely to be pretty tough for any child I had now. I have no wealth to pass on, and am unlikely to have. The health service is stretched and trending toward privatisation, university is an increasingly financially difficult choice I won't be able to help much with, houses are extremely expensive and continue to be despite repeated predictions they will dramatically 'correct'.

Geopolitically things are still shit (as they ever were around the globe, it's just that we're not in the middle of it currently). But I think there's a fair period of building unrest ahead over the next couple of decades because these things are cylical and as new powers rise and the political landscape swings towards a particular side, things tend to get a bit spicy for a bit. China finding its feet as a superpower, Russia vying for its own place, the shift toward rightwing rhetoric in the west.. all of these will have an effect over the coming years.

All things that might not be insurmountable. But added together, these things could make for a very different looking world, and one I don't personally think it's my place to bring someone into just to satisfy my own desire to procreate. Having grown up in poverty, I've seen how these seemingly small shifts can make a huge difference when you're already at the baseline. Having friends who grew up in politically volatile places, how shifts that seem very far away to us right now happen quickly and can be lifechanging overnight.

I personally couldn't bring a child into the world unless I thought I was going to be able to give them better than I had myself and right now that doesn't look possible.

Maybe if you're well-off and able to set your child up with as much as possible to negate some of these issues it's different.

[Joinedforthis22]

@Tobythecat

I understand that the urge to reproduce is very strong, but the future looks incredibly bleak (I'm not talking about just covid, but also climate change). I fear for the future and what sort of quality of life people will have, considering Automation/competition over jobs, climate change issues (food/water shortages, extreme weather). Honestly, how can you think that everything will be fine and work itself out, or do you just not think about it? Children today will face unimagineable suffering in the next 20-30 years, how can you justify it to them? I wanted children desperately but decided not to because of the above, plus genetic factors.

People mention the war and how people kept having kids, but the threats we face have never been faced before and are multifaceted. Is existing to suffer better than not existing at all?

I'm wondering if those whole thread should be zapped. OP has said they have mental health issues and autism, some of the replies are saying things like "dial down the crazy" and I just don't think it be helping the OP or anyone else

[Lesserspottedmama]

Because I read a lot of history which has given me the perspective that suffering is part of life but every generation has had reason to fear the same fears you are defining life by OP, but most of them choose faith (not necessarily in a religious sense) and hope and trusted to the general pattern of the things; that humanity endures and prevails, adapts and flourishes - even under adversity.
Much of ‘climate change’ is lies and spin by elites. Yes humans have had a terrible effect on the earth in the last 50 years (mostly due to those same elites funnily enough), we all need to treading as lightly as we can and doing our utmost to make good choices. But this needn’t involve not having children if you feel you can raise them well and to be good people.

[PaulGallico]

This type of thread always goes the same way. The OP claims that they are looking for intelligent discussion and when people ask intelligent questions/disagree they are said to be defensive and aggressive.

[blubberball]

It's never been a good time to have kids. The world's always been crap. People were having kids during the bubonic plague that wiped out most of Europe. Through Victorian times when the streets were filthy and children were sent up chimneys and down mines. Through 2 World wars.

I guess that now we have more control than ever with birth control.

[ZenNudist]

Dial down the crazy

[Joinedforthis22]

Unimaginable suffering?? I'm hoping to be here in 20-30 years so I hope not, yes life will get harder but for the majority posting on mumsnet their children will be alright, there are other countries which will have it much worse and we will adapt as other generations before us did. I think limiting the amount of children you have to fit what you can provide for/leave them is sensible but your talk is far too sensational.

[OfstedOffred]

Do you really believe this? Why would numerous respected scientists be naking it up

they dont make it up. They present a range of scenarios of varying likelihoods. The media then select the most extreme, regardless of the probability of it arising, and run with it.

I think the scientists are pragmatic enough to also know that there are lots of changes humanity can make that will improve things regardless, and that people scared by worst case scenarios are more likely to get on and make those changes (reducing air travel being a big one).

It doesn't mean that a doomsday scenario is actually likely in 30 years time.

[Allelbowsandtoes]

@HeresMe

All these people on about climate we heard same thing 30 years ago guess what it's not much changed and it won't in next 30 despite what the media and XR tell you.

Do you really believe this? Why would numerous respected scientists be naking it up?

[Crookedman]

I think if everyone in the world limited family size that wouldn’t be a bad thing but tbh as countries grow richer the birth rate is declining anyway.

I do wonder though if the people who chose not to have children (and I mean actively chose because of environmental reasons) didn’t want them anyway. People who really want to have children have them, it’s like climate change activists who fly about or go on skiing holidays - you will find a way to justfiy it to yourself. Just to be clear I don’t think having kids is the be all and end all and I would have been fine either way but I won’t have more than 1. It’s not a given that women want kids (I didn’t for a very long time).

[Arealnumber]

@GreatMindsThinkAlike

I've been thinking the same, OP. I'm mid 30s and half of my friends have decided they won't have children for these reasons too.

Yes, it's a thing, many young women now are choosing childlessness for this reason, with good reason. OP I think the rest are either ignorant, selfish or very brave indeed.

[Arealnumber]

@DameCelia

Children today will face unimagineable suffering in the next 20-30 years
Sorry, you lost me there.
If you want to try again, without the hysteria, I'm sure people would be happy to engage with you.

Unnecessarily patronising comment. Do you not read actual news, what the UN are predicting and warning us of.......or do you just prefer to live in complete denial?

[SallySeven]

Mango that's the way I look at it too.

Most green initiatives seem wrongheaded.

Diesel vehicles were pushed as more green.
Adding biofuels into petrol led to deforestation.
Burning wood biomass ends in clearing forests in Europe.

It's infuriating.

[MangoFeverDream]

This is so ridiculous. No better time for children to be born. About 100 years ago, over a third of children never lived to see adulthood. Now THAT is a terrible fate.

Not even third-world countries have child mortality rates that high any more. COVID doesn’t kill children or healthy adults, and climate change is not the apocalypse that some people think it is. We have the technology to adjust and mitigate. (Unless the Greens get their way and destroy our economy and way of life, then we won’t have any hope to survive the changing environment ... ironically)

[XingMing]

It is just possible that planet Earth is passing through a hot period. Temperatures in the Middle Ages are documented as abnormally warm. And the 1890s were abnormally cold.

While it is possible that population size is exacerbating the trend, there is also abundant evidence to suggest that globally, birth rates are falling back. Medicine and female education are moderating population growth. And I do think that it is essential that we rein in our fertility. DH and I have one child, and frankly have lavished all our resources on that one. Who is to say that we were wrong?

[rorosemary]

I'Ve heard too many times over the past decades that the world was ending or humanity was fucked. So did my parents. So did my grandparents. On the whole life only got better actually. I really don't take it seriously.

[smurfette1818]

OP is asking why parents today continue to have children, and whether "they think that everything will be fine and work itself out", or whether they "just don't think about it"?

well said @YouWereGr8InLittleMenstruators

I fear most of us probably do not think about it and some are angry when asked about it.

[smurfette1818]

OP this is a parenting site, 95% would say being parents is the greatest thing and life is not worth living without their children.

I think even scientists/governments in every country published a formal announcement that they can say with absolute certainty that the earth would no longer livable in 5 years time, people probably would not stop having children, they would defend their decision by saying it is the governments' conspiracy. People most of the times are not logical. We make decisions based on what we want and justify them later by searching for some logical facts to support them.

[SerenDippitty]

@SleepingStandingUp I’m not saying we should stop people having kids. Maybe restricting to one or two. Otherwise there will be a huge underclass with no chance of getting work.

[Enrico]

[user1467300911]

In my social circle, those now in their 40s and 50s who have chosen not to have kids work in environmental sectors, or are aid workers / locals who’ve experienced up close the effects of resource wars and famine. Read into that what you will.