To not understand why people are still having kids?

[Tobythecat]

I understand that the urge to reproduce is very strong, but the future looks incredibly bleak (I'm not talking about just covid, but also climate change). I fear for the future and what sort of quality of life people will have, considering Automation/competition over jobs, climate change issues (food/water shortages, extreme weather). Honestly, how can you think that everything will be fine and work itself out, or do you just not think about it? Children today will face unimagineable suffering in the next 20-30 years, how can you justify it to them? I wanted children desperately but decided not to because of the above, plus genetic factors.

People mention the war and how people kept having kids, but the threats we face have never been faced before and are multifaceted. Is existing to suffer better than not existing at all?

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@Tobythecat

"the urge to reproduce is very strong"
"the future looks incredibly bleak"
I fear for the future
"Children today will face unimagineable suffering"
"I wanted children desperately"
"Is existing to suffer better than not existing at all?"

What's with all the superlatives? I think you might need some help for anxiety if you regularly think in such terms. It all sounds OTT to me.

I don't agree. We never got a choice to be born did we? Can most of us really say for sure that we'd definitely prefer to be alive as opposed to not alive? Life can be shit for a lot of people, and has been shit for most people historically.

I'm not sure what to say to that really. Life is shit for a lot of people yes and obviously some people are suicidal, but I do think that it is fairly safe to say that a majority of people, given the option of living in today's world or never having existed, would rather have lived. Especially if the only factors they take into consideration for why they might prefer to be dead are things that are specifically caused by being alive today rather than at a different time in history.

The posters here lobbying for women in the west to stop having children would appear to me like gnats pushing the oil tanker in the direction it's going already! Do you not follow demographic trends?

Sad people.

Right now my kids have a pretty cool life and so do I, with them by my side. If we all die tomorrow we will still have had a fantastic time together and it makes it worth it. Of course I hope to have many years with them still.
If some are choosing not to have children for "environmental" reasons - great - more space for my family!

@sharpeidiem

To everyone here who is against having kids for environmental reasons, have you ever wanted children?

I'm not trying to be divisive, I'm just aware that when I was younger and more emotionally vulnerable from the things that happened to me, I too had the thought of; "bringing kids into the world can be cruel." Turns out I needed a bit of Sertraline in my system and then I was fine (now I actively would like kids in the near future, though that's unrelated).

Not insinuating that's anyone else's situation, but I would be curious to see if health reasons or anything other than environmental reasons comes into it.

That's interesting, for me it's the opposite.

I take an antidepressant which makes me feel pretty great.

I start thinking about having children when my mental health goes down the pan...I don't know why, but for me it's a sign I'm unwell. I don't want children when I'm feeling mentally well.

Every month I do feel a desire to have a baby for a few days when I'm ovulating but it passes.

My main reason for not wanting them is that I don't want the responsibility and also life hasn't been that rosy for many people I know so I can assume that my future kids (if I had them) would encounter challenges too. I don't want the potential heartbreak of what could go wrong. I'd rather just uncomplicate my own future. I was born into a family that has been hit by one tragedy after another over the years so it makes me wary.

@LadyH846 For me personally, the only times when I thought I wouldn't have kids was because I wouldn't let myself have them (rather than I didn't want them). For reasons similar, e.g. they are guaranteed to experience pain, they may have some genetic MH conditions, I'm worried about the cyclical hereditary abuse.

But as soon as my MH improved and I dealt with my trauma, I managed to actually experience joy in contrast with my pain. It made me realise that even through all the bollocks and horrible life events I experienced, I would still rather be alive. I guess I also benefit from some of the ego surrounding the theory of: "I'll be a better parent than my parents were."

I think being a parent is an individual choice. Those who don't want children, who can't support children or value other factors more (freedom, or the environment in this example, providing having less kids makes a big enough dent in our climate change issues) shouldn't have or feel pressured to have kids. It's a similar situation for those who DO want kids.

But honestly -- I think everyone here is overlooking the privilege of the choice. It is a million times harder to be a woman in a country without contraception or sex education to decide not to have kids. It is also a million times harder to be a woman who desperately wants children but cannot have them for health or other reasons. Those of us who are fortunate to have the choice should just respect other people's decisions and work to support those who are struggling in relation to fertility.

Sorry, big tangent.

We live in a passive house , grow our own veg and fruit and try to live as self sufficiency as possible. We have planted hundreds of oak trees in the last few years on our land, our kids have done this with us. A drop in the ocean obviously but I have no doubt they’ll continue to do good work when we are gone.
There will always be adversity and challenges but I’m not in despair about the future for my children.

Having children and them being in our lives has been the most unbelievably rewarding experience of our lives. When they were born I had a glimpse of paradise , yes it might sound corny to someone else but that’s how it felt to me.

For now they wake up everyday happy and look forward to everything , being around that now is very uplifting
There’s also the concept of enjoying the now. Of course everything could get worse, of course bad things are happening all the time and we each have a part to mitigate that. This generalization of “people just have kids as that’s expected etc without thought etc” is just that , a generalization. Some people yes but lots like me and dh wanted a family , had children because we adore them and know we can give them a good life.
I know on my death bed my memories will be of my childhood and of my children and I don’t regret a moment with them. I have never felt love like the love I have with my children , a totally intangible thing and I wouldn’t have felt it without them. It’s not always a logical thing to have kids, there’s no one simple answer to why plp would have them in a less than ideal world.

But I would never question a persons decision not to have them or criticize them as why would I?

But we're unlikely to see an apocalypse in the next 30 years. There are actually plenty of resources for everyone, we just need to be less wastefull and distribute them more fairly.

True, but so much as suggest on here that it is a poor use of resources to fly abroad for a holiday every year and see what reaction you get. People are unwilling to compromise. They like to talk about needing to take action on the environment, but ask them to give up their car, big house, foreign holidays, etc, and they balk. Suggest that as a planet we consume less meat and dairy and the response isn't great. They want action as long as they don't have to take it themselves. That is why other people feel so very bleak about the future.

I must admit that I’ve found women planning to conceive in the middle of a pandemic hard to fathom.
I mean up to them but I wouldn’t want to be pregnant or labour in these circumstances - which are going to get much worse during the winter months.
And I definitely wouldn’t want to have a new born with no mixing in households.

@HelloMissus

I must admit that I’ve found women planning to conceive in the middle of a pandemic hard to fathom. I mean up to them but I wouldn’t want to be pregnant or labour in these circumstances - which are going to get much worse during the winter months. And I definitely wouldn’t want to have a new born with no mixing in households.

It's not clear when the pandemic will end though - some people are on their last legs in terms of a biological time frame for having children. Plus, I guess there's an element of having more sex as for a long time nobody could leave the house (also possibly stopped people from buying birth control or similar). Maybe it also gives some people a sense of "you never know what's going to happen" which gives them a push to prioritise having children.

'I must admit that I’ve found women planning to conceive in the middle of a pandemic hard to fathom.
I mean up to them but I wouldn’t want to be pregnant or labour in these circumstances - which are going to get much worse during the winter months.
And I definitely wouldn’t want to have a new born with no mixing in households.'

Couldn't agree more TBH

www.npr.org/2016/08/18/479349760/should-we-be-having-kids-in-the-age-of-climate-change

Please read the article above. It discusses and refutes all the arguments by people who say we have lived through worse or are recycling etc
Some extracts from the article -

"cites a study from 2010 that looked at the impact of demographic change on global carbon emissions. It found that slowing population growth could eliminate one-fifth to one-quarter of all the carbon emissions that need to be cut by midcentury to avoid that potentially catastrophic tipping point."

"no amount of conservation gives you a pass. Oregon State University researchers have calculated the savings from all kinds of conservation measures: driving a hybrid, driving less, recycling, using energy-efficient appliances, windows and light bulbs.

For an American, the total metric tons of carbon dioxide saved by all of those measures over an entire lifetime of 80 years: 488. By contrast, the metric tons saved when a person chooses to have one fewer child: 9,441."

Another student asks: "What happens if that kid you decided not to have would have been the person who grew up and essentially cured this?"

Again, great question, says Rieder, but the answer is still no. First, the chances are slim. More to the point, he says, valuing children as a means to an end — be it to cure climate change or, say, provide soldiers for the state — is ethically problematic.

With all that's at stake, he says, we need to shift our cultural attitudes. "It's not the childless who must justify their lifestyle. It's the rest of us."

Why would the childless be asked to justify their lifestyle? Except by these Stasi types..

Can I point out immediately that many people do not consume at a US lifestyle/ cheap energy level so the figures may be kinda, somehow, accurate for Oregon (being kind.)

Excuse we might be birthing the geniuses that figure out how to fix the mess? Or the charismatic leader who takes us in to the new tomorrow?

Or in my case the Antichrist, who is going to make our suffering short.

The babies of today, are the taxpayers of the future!

I stand with you completely OP. Not sure I can quite bring myself to read too many of the responses on here because the level of ignorance around this is really shocking. I've had conversations with a younger cousin to this effect - a very bright young woman.....but no, she just thinks I'm a miserable old so and so I'm sure. The energies of young people could be put to such better use - imagine trying to parent a child with a host of health issues - normal these days - through environmental meltdown. It's going to be very high stress. It's going to be miserable. But no, my cousin thinks she wants a baby, had always planned to have a baby so that's what she's going to do. I love and support young people to my utmost abilities throughout life but the insistence on procreation these days is very selfish behaviour. Time would be much better spent joining Extinction Rebellion.

Time spent with extinction rebellion stopping working people getting onto public transport = time well spent?

Pull the other one it has fairy bells on.

sharp maybe, yeah.
Just glad I’m past all that .

@Arealnumber

I stand with you completely OP. Not sure I can quite bring myself to read too many of the responses on here because the level of ignorance around this is really shocking. I've had conversations with a younger cousin to this effect - a very bright young woman.....but no, she just thinks I'm a miserable old so and so I'm sure. The energies of young people could be put to such better use - imagine trying to parent a child with a host of health issues - normal these days - through environmental meltdown. It's going to be very high stress. It's going to be miserable. But no, my cousin thinks she wants a baby, had always planned to have a baby so that's what she's going to do. I love and support young people to my utmost abilities throughout life but the insistence on procreation these days is very selfish behaviour. Time would be much better spent joining Extinction Rebellion.

Not just health issues from environmental meltdown but also mental health issues from the state of the planet and the way we live.

Is existing to suffer better than not existing at all?

There is literally an entire branch of philosophy dedicated to that question, so would be surprised if you come to any quick conclusions

But having studied it for 4 years - "yes" is my considered answer.

Don't forget, it's always the subsequent generations that will be paying for your pension and health care... unless you're a multi millionaire. But even in that scenario, you will need multiple generations to help you to acquire your wealth. Our children will supply the care you might need in old age and develop that ground-breaking new treatment you may desperately need! They will be building or maintaining your home and supply the food you eat.
It's just not as straightforward as anyone like to think!

Yes use your time on earth wisely by joining extinction rebellion. Why bother raising young or indeed working when instead you could be pissing people off by ringing cow bells in front of McDonald's or glueing yourself to commuters.

@Enrico

Yes use your time on earth wisely by joining extinction rebellion. Why bother raising young or indeed working when instead you could be pissing people off by ringing cow bells in front of McDonald's or glueing yourself to commuters.

This also just feels like it betrays a total lack of understanding of what it is to want a child. The reason that people have children isn't that they haven't got enough to do so that it's a gap that could easily be filled with going out and spending the time on a protest.

Whilst I think the world would be much better off without the destructive force of humans, that does not equal me ever wanting to join extinction rebellion. Once their aims might have been considered laudable, now I'm of the opinion that they're aggressive thugs. I can't stand them.